Need help with water treatment!!

[Southern Man]

I would let them in if they didn't charge anything. After all, it is to fix their system that didn't work from the start. But hydrogen peroxide and chlorine do the same thing.

I've read up on this a bit and there are some things that may help you understand the situation a bit better:
1. The smell is hydrogen sulphide H2S. Concentrations down to 0.05 ppm (1000 times less than you have) can create odor problems. Although it is common in well water, it can be formed from bacteria in your well, so that should be checked first. This would be done by shock treatment- chlorination of the well.
2. Chlorine will oxidize H2S to insoluble sulphide particles that can then be removed with a filter. The reaction takes time so you need a contact tank to allow time for it to occur. What I’ve read says use a sand filter but there might be other types of filters to use. You need 100ppm Cl to oxidize 50ppm H2S. Normally activated carbon is used as a finishing step to remove excess chlorine.
3. Hydrogen peroxide H2O2 will oxidize H2S as well. Again you’ll need a contact tank and a filter. You need 50ppm H2O2 to oxidize 50ppm H2S. You should not need activated carbon because excess H2O2 forms water and oxygen. Maybe it is they who are the schleps and used the carbon on the wrong type of system.
4. What I’ve been reading is for treatment of relatively low concentrations. You may need to use a primary step, such as aeration, to remove the bulk of the H2S, then proceed with chemical treatment. An aeration system could be a tower mounted outside, trickling water over coarse media (rock or plastic shapes) with a fan on top drawing air from openings in the bottom. You may need more than one pass in the tower, with a pump recirculating water from the bottom (instead of just a single pass, using only the well pump). Of course where you are you need to be concerned with freezing an all that. Someone who’s creative could do a fountain or a water fall as part of this process.

Again I suspect that this company got in over their head because of the high concentration. The only understand that equipment that they sell (if that), so aren’t able to “think out of the box†and propose a different type of system. You would be wise to hire a local environmental engineer who doesn’t have a financial interest in specifying a particular system or brand.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know why a new thread was started, now no one can go back and look up anything that was said about this previously...

I don't agree with most of that. There is no way to make a "tower" or other open to air system to get rid of H2S gas in potable water. Even if some of the materials were NSF Standard 61.

I do not agree with getting any type engineer involved. Or any governmental agency, you have already spent thousands of dollars and doing any of that will only cost more. Also, the water quality improvement industry has the only equipment that can legally be used unless you pay no attention to codes.

I say those guys should add the retention tank they should have been using since day one. Their carbon filters are too small and they should not need two in series, one correctly sized would suffice.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[tntg]

Hi, Gary...not a new thread...go back a page and you'll see what Southern Man is responding to...thanks.

 

[Southern Man]

More on aeration treatment of potable water: http://www.wrights-trainingsite.com/WTaeratonb.html

 

[tntg]

I think chlorine with aeration and the right size carbon tank will work but that is not what this company is willing to do. As a matter of fact, they are insisting that their way is the only way...their post chlorination system will be in addition to the 35% hydrogen peroxide and will come after the carbon and after the water softener. There will not be anything removing the chlorine from the water. And, they are NOT willing to do it for free- they want another $800.

I can't seem to find anyone who knows what the potential hazzards are of inadvertantly mixing hydrogen peroxide with chlorine?

Did get some good news today. A man up the road, whose system we are looking at Monday or Tuesday, had sulfer between 40 - 50 ppm (this whole area seems prone) and he had Culligan install something (don't know the particulars yet). He ended up getting frustrated, took them to court, got all his money back including atty fees and then did his own research as I am doing and fixed it himself with an aerator. He has other components to the system and I'll find out what those are early next week.

The saga continues. All I know is, pardon the pun, this stinks!

 

[Southern Man]

....A man up the road, whose system we are looking at Monday or Tuesday, had sulfer between 40 - 50 ppm (this whole area seems prone) and he had Culligan install something (don't know the particulars yet). He ended up getting frustrated, took them to court, got all his money back including atty fees and then did his own research as I am doing and fixed it himself with an aerator. He has other components to the system and I'll find out what those are early next week.

The saga continues. All I know is, pardon the pun, this stinks!

Bingo there you go. Hire his attorney and copy his design.

 

[Bob NH]

An air stripper can be constructed to remove hydrogen sulfide from water. However, it won't do anything about bacteria that may produce hydrogen sulfide after the water passes through the stripper.

It may take quite a high column to get enough hydrogen sulfide out of the water. Design of a stripping column is beyond the scope of this forum, but is it possible to reduce the concedntration by a factor of 100 if necessary. A stripper is fairly complex and usually not the best solution for a very small system.

Chlorine can be neutralized by injecting an appropriate amount of sodium thiosulfate. You need 3.5 mg/liter of sodium thiosulfate to neutralize each mg/liter of chlorine. http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcdechlor.asp

Neutralization of the chlorine will produce small amounts of sodium, chloride, and sulfate ions.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Hi, Gary...not a new thread...go back a page and you'll see what Southern Man is responding to...thanks.

Sorry, I didn't notice that.

 

[Gary Slusser]

More on aeration treatment of potable water: http://www.wrights-trainingsite.com/WTaeratonb.html

Yes I know all that but my point was or is that this homeowner and 99.999% of others will not and can not use air stripping due to freezing, the size needed, the space required and numerous other reasons. And frankly they don't need to because there are a number of common every day ways of treating this water and they have already spent $8k and with an additional piece of equipment, and it isn't a second solution feeder, and sizing things correctly, their problem will be solved. I say that after selling the type of equipment for over 21 years now.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I think chlorine with aeration and the right size carbon tank will work but that is not what this company is willing to do. As a matter of fact, they are insisting that their way is the only way...their post chlorination system will be in addition to the 35% hydrogen peroxide and will come after the carbon and after the water softener. There will not be anything removing the chlorine from the water. And, they are NOT willing to do it for free- they want another $800.

I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

 

[tntg]

I am curious. You say one of the testers used Alka Seltzer for his hydrogen sulfide test. Is this where (he) took a sample in small bottle and put the AS in? Then placed a paper disk in the lid and closed the bottle? HACH makes one like this. After a couple of minutes, the disk is removed and compare with a color chart.

Thanks,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Yes...that's the one. He had 10 disks in there all of which discolored.

 

[tntg]

I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

Now that's what I'm talking about!

I am not going to pay them another penny. My attorney is thinking if we don't let them come in and try the post-chlorination system they could say they were willing to fix it and we didn't give them an opportunity. Never mind that they've had 13 MONTHS and he's been here at least a dozen times. What I'd prefer to do is find documentation from an unbiased source that clearly indicates all the faults with what they installed and how their last proposal won't work. If I get enough support I won't let thim come in and I will take them to court. I don't know if you saw my previous post about a guy up the road who sued Culligan due to the same problem. Monday or Tuesday I'm going there and copying all his paperwork and documenting what he has installed that fixed his problem and then calling HIS lawyer!

We asked him what would remove the chlorine from the water and his response was we don't need to because public water has chlorine in it (which I believe is true but isn't it constantly monitored for proper levels?) but we didn't ask him how the particles would be removed. I'm getting smarter and smarter by the day when it comes to this stuff Is it because chlorine is an oxidizer and turns the H2S into sulphide particles? So that is what would remain in our water? Real nice.

Seriously though, thanks for all of your help. It's difficult when you have all these people telling you a hundred different things! We were supposed to have the new system installed today but we post-poned it until we can get our ducks in a row.

This guys a butt-hole. No two ways about it.

 

[tntg]

I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

Let's see how well I know these guys. I think I know what they would say to your question/s above. They will say that it is not H2S that is causing the odor...it is sulfur bacteria which the chlorine will kill thereby taking care of the odor and not leave any particles.

We disinfected the well recently and the sulfur smell was only gone while the bleach was still present. The minute that water circulated through it was back in full force. If it was bacteria in the well wouldn't that have taken care of it for a least a little while?

 

[Gary Slusser]

Hydrogen peroxide or chlorine or any other disinfectant kills bacteria. The question and bottom line is why isn't their peroxide working, and why do they have to add chlorination to kill sulfur or any other bacteria that the peroxide should be killing?

I have heard that peroxide doesn't work well on any type of reducing bacteria... And that is what they are using and it is not working, for whatever reason; it has not worked and is not working period.

Also, they can not prove that SRB is the cause of the odor, actually they produce gas and that is what the odor is (you aren't smelling the bacteria); it can be H2S getting past the peroxide, and/or SRB living in the carbon filters. Either way, the peroxide, and the carbon filters, isn't working.

Swapping to chlorine in the solution feeder you already have is easily done. And, they could install the new retention tank that they should have installed initially (which they want to do now) after the solution feeder that is there now. That should work as long as they can inject sufficient chlorine.

Which brings us to ask why they had to add another carbon filter months ago, which didn't solve the problem. And now they're back for another 10% ($800) of the $8,000 you have already paid them.... I call'em CROOKS.

They should eat the cost in swapping to chlorine and moving things to add the retention tank and throw in a new correctly sized carbon tank. If it were me I would because I know that I'll lose more by you telling everyone you talk to for the next 5 years how I didn't get it right and to stay away from me. But no, they'll continue to be stuck on stupid until they learn, if they do.

BTW, there are many ways to treat water and all well etc. waters are different. So you aren't going to be able to nail down "it shoulda been done this way and we wouldn't have the problem". So stick with the "it has not worked from the beginning and we want it out of here unless they fix it free of charge; they've had 13 months and $8000.00. If chlorine can solve it after all their equipment, why not at the beginning?

And insist that you will not accept constantly chlorinated water, and what that volume can do to your softener's resin. Their position will be that they can add a carbon filter after the new retention tank.... and you can remind them you already have two, so put the chlorine and retention tank ahead of them.

IMO, they are acting this way simply to prevent themselves from losing any money. If they go to court I think they will lose a bunch.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Yes...that's the one. He had 10 disks in there all of which discolored.

The best, easiest and most commonly available test for H2S is your nose.

 

[tntg]

IMO, they are acting this way simply to prevent themselves from losing any money. If they go to court I think they will lose a bunch.

I agree completely and I think he knows it but is too arrogant to admit he's wrong.

 

[tntg]

Here is exactly why we ended up with 2 carbon tanks.

We started out with one carbon tank and a sulfate unit. They had the peroxide set too high and it got through the carbon tank and damaged the sulfate unit (our sulfates aren't that high so we weren't too worried about it but we had to lower them for the DOH to do its final test in order to get our CO in Albany Cty). So, it's not that we even needed another carbon tank but if they didn't give us something they would have had to have given us a refund for the sulfate unit. Better for them to just slap on another piece of equipment and still make money as opposed to giving some back. You said it earlier...crooks. I didn't know half as much as I do now when this was all going on...not that I am classifying myself as an expert by any means.

My lawyer is drafting a letter tomorrow asking them to address our concerns with the post-chlorination system- all the things you listed in your previous post as well as putting the responsibility on them to explain what happens when hydrogen peroxide mixes with chlorine when the carbon needs changing, etc. His defense is going to be they offered to come in and fix it but we wouldn't let them but if they can't address our concerns with regards to their proposed fix and offer valid explanations then that will be our reason for not letting them back in. If he doesn't respond at all then that still works to our benefit.

When all of this is said and done I will make sure you and half of NYS know who this company is! Maybe I'll put a sign in the back of my husbands pick-up truck and drive all around town for a few months. I always thought that would be fun!

 

[Gary Slusser]

One last thought, they are not 'fixing' anything, they are consistantly adding NEW equipment and you pay for it while living with bad water quality.

IMO they owe you at least the difference between the price for the anion resin (sulfate) filter and the carbon they exchanged that resin for. I say that assuming that they set the volume of hydrogen peroxide to be injected with the solution feeder; and that ruined your expensive anion resin. BTW, that should have been regenerated with softener salt, so where's the brine tank? And that requires a softener control valve. The control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only (read less expensive) control valve. So I supposed they swapped the valves or removed certain parts to make it into the filter version.

I want a picture of the truck with the back window sign.

 

[Southern Man]

......

We disinfected the well recently and the sulfur smell was only gone while the bleach was still present. The minute that water circulated through it was back in full force. If it was bacteria in the well wouldn't that have taken care of it for a least a little while?

Once you disinfect a well it should stay clean unless the well is getting surface water in it somehow. With a new house that is doubtful as in NYS the well should be in bedrock with the casing driven down to the top of the bedrock then sealed in. At least that's my understanding of the requirements when I lived up there.

 

[tntg]

One last thought, they are not 'fixing' anything, they are consistantly adding NEW equipment and you pay for it while living with bad water quality.

IMO they owe you at least the difference between the price for the anion resin (sulfate) filter and the carbon they exchanged that resin for. I say that assuming that they set the volume of hydrogen peroxide to be injected with the solution feeder; and that ruined your expensive anion resin. BTW, that should have been regenerated with softener salt, so where's the brine tank? And that requires a softener control valve. The control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only (read less expensive) control valve. So I supposed they swapped the valves or removed certain parts to make it into the filter version.

I want a picture of the truck with the back window sign.

We were charged $3,500 for the sulfate unit. How much less do you sell the carbon tank/filter for? I don't even know what type of carbon we have or what size it is (live and learn).

That makes two things we paid for that got swapped out and never got compensated for: the sulfate unit and chlorination system (he installed the stenner w/hydro peroxide instead)

The softener was installed after the sulfate unit...are you saying it should have been installed before the sulfate unit and if so, why?

You lost me with the control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only control valve. I don't recall if they swapped parts but what difference does it make? Our carbon tanks do backwash...explain please