Need help with a tankless heater definition

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ogawas

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Hi,

I have a Navien NPE 240A and experiencing hot to lukewarm issues as identified on this website, search results.

Question:

Are the words and device referring to "check valve" the same as the words and device referring to a "mixing valve"?

I found a youtube video on how to change the "mixing valve" for this Navien, but I was not sure if the words /device mixing valve = check valve, as used in the search results on this site.

Thanks for your help.

Stuart
 

FDNY/RETIRED

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Not sure if this is the video you saw since there a couple. But is this the valve your talking about at about the 21 sec part of this video. Are you showing any error codes?

Here's the manual https://www.navieninc.com/downloads/npe-a-s-manuals-installation-manual-en. Look at the exploded view and see if there is a name for what your looking for. Mixing valve could be the 3 way valve by what your describing. I am not a plumber or a Navien Tec. I am a homeowner and I have a NCB 240E .

Hope this helps
 

ogawas

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Hi

Thanks for your detailed feedback, the manual link and the videos.

Upon close inspection of the exploded diagram and the part description for my NPE 240A, there are no part descriptions called "3 way valve". There is a "water adjustment valve", which has a solenoid and wires connecting to it. This "water adjustment valve" is located on the right side of the box and in the middle (and not where the 3 way valve is located in the videos). The NPE 240A has "buffer tank" and a "hot water outlet pipe " where the 3 Way valve normally is parked per the videos.

Does anyone know if this "water adjustment valve" is the part to replace if I am getting luke warm water after a minute of hot water?

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There is also a "check valve" near the "water adjustment valve". The "check valve" has separate part and item number from the "water adjustment valve".

Does anyone know if this "check valve" needs to be replaced as well as the "water adjustment valve" if I am getting luke warm water after a minute of hot water?

Thanks in advance.

Stuart
 

ogawas

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Also, my display is NOT showing any error codes....maybe this is telling me that the issue is not the "water adjustment valve" and is a mechanical "check valve" issue?
 

Bannerman

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There are various threads in this forum that describe this issue occurring when there is an issue with the check-valve. A check valve is intended to allow water to flow in one direction only so if the check valve is remaining partially open, then incoming cold water will mix with the outgoing hot water. The check-valve is located to the right of the circulation pump outlet.

The manual '2-way' valve is located directly above the recirculation return fitting.

See page #9 : https://www.navieninc.com/downloads/npe-a-s-manuals-installation-manual-en

Other threads re: check-valve:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-showers-check-valve-issue.88086/#post-654777

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....nternal-recirculating-mode.86848/#post-628548
 

Fitter30

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Water adjustment valve tries to keep a constant water flow. If it fail will code. Do you have a hot water recirculation line could have a failed check valve.
 

ogawas

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Thank you for your replies.

@Bannerman - Yes, I did in fact read and reread those specific threads and I was still a little confused with the terminology used in those threads versus the manual terminology NOT fully matching up to my tankless heater model manual section.

@fitter30 - Thank you. I actually received a call from a Navien sales tech trainer this morning, and he basically said exactly what you said. It "modulates" the amount of water intake from the cold water house intake cold water line to prevent a "cold" water sandwich from hitting the pre heater IF the WAV senses a certain water temperature = (IF cold water temp = X temp threshold, THEN look at current water demand being consumed and send a signal opening the WAV valve a certain Y% as opposed to full 100% of valve open = prevent the cold water sandwich issue). He spent the time to talk with me given my background. That cleared up a lot of misunderstandings.

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More details on the NPE 240A that was not in clear / vague (at least in my mind) after reading and re-reading the links provided by @Bannerman threads (above) and the NPE 240A YouTube videos):

* If you have the NPE240A, there is NO 3 way valve (This 3 way valve is shown in many YouTube NPE 240 series videos that talk about lukewarm / cold water issues). These videos show the location and how to remove the 3 way valve (causing lukewarm cold water issues) and this can consequently mislead you into believing you have this 3 way valve in your NPE 240A. This part does NOT exist in the NPE 240A. I thought the WAV was this 3 way valve; nope.

* The check valve is just to the left of the Water Adjustment Valve (WAV) and is purely a non electrical device. @Bannerman referenced a thread (above) and someone posted two picture links. The first photo is that check valve in the NPE 240A; it is circled. Note there is a question mark around the device to the right of the check valve; this is the WAV device @fitter30 correctly identified. That second device (not knowing what and how the WAV was...made me second guess myself thinking that this was in fact the 3 way valve shown in the YouTube videos. Nope. The NPE manual does NOT adequately describe this device function and consequently made me continue to second guess myself if this device could be a contributing issue or the sole issue to my lukewarm water issue.

Compounding this second guessing in the manual....

If you look closely at the high level water flow diagram in the NPE 240A section of the user manual, the check valve AND the WAV (in the diagram) are combined into a SINGLE element. This is what really through me off and made me second guess everything. This is really a poor diagram when your trying to understand the true components of the system when diagnosing lukewarm / cold water issues. This diagram merely serves a very "high" level explanation "generally" how the water system flows but is NOT to be used for troubleshooting; dohh.

* To remove the 240A check valve, there is a "horse shoe" shaped retaining clip, (silver metal piece; some people call this a "C" clip). You must pull this clip up and out. Once this is removed, then you can pull out the check valve. Not sure if this matters, but my "C" clip had a red and black mark on the top of the C clip.

When you go back to install the C clip, the black marking is on the left side and the red marking is on the right side as you face the tankless heater and as you insert the C clip back after replacing the check valve. I had taken a photo of this before I removed parts, and I referred back to my photo showing the red mark on the right...just an FYI and not sure if this matters at all...I am just picky that way after having had issues with non tankless water heaters...specifically car engine motors, transmissions, rear ends etc. that are very picky.

* The check valve has four components. The long plastic barrel body, a plastic piston with an O ring, a spring, and a plastic retainer clip.

There are at least two different areas where this device can fail. (1) the O ring on the piston can wear out and (2) the plastic retainer clip.

In my case the plastic retainer clip failed. I noticed this as soon as I pulled out the check valve.

As I pulled out the check valve, the retainer clip fell off, which holds the spring and the plastic piston. Upon close inspection of this plastic retaining clip, there are 3 or 4 "male" circular shaped extrudes that follow the outer circumference of the plastic retaining clip. These "male' extrusions are suppose to snap into the "female" main plastic barrel area cutouts.

On my failed retainer clip, 1 of the teeth had broken /chipped away causing the spring and plastic piston to push against the interior wall of the interior main plastic barrel "cylinder" = friction = no movement of piston = cold water always introduced into system = cold to lukewarm water depending on where the piston landed and stuck inside the plastic main body cylinder. (For those familiar with piston to cylinder gas engine blocks....think of this as your engine piston hitting the interior cylinder walls....that would NOT be a pretty sight)

I noticed the O ring also was slightly eaten away, which may have contributed to some of the issues as well.

That's my break down of what I observed and the specific failure point inside the check valve.

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Prior to the check valve inspection, I removed all three filters on the bottom of the tankless body; while there was a little dirt (after 4 years of usage), there was nothing alarming that would make you go oh geeze, that is bad. Even the sediment trap was really not that bad. No red ferrite color build up; mostly very small sand/rock particles that got trapped upon close inspection.

I went ahead and purchased two of those check valves online since they were very inexpensive ( the shipping was much more expensive than the parts so I went ahead and ordered two).

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Couple of other notes the Navien sales trainer told me today when we spoke... you pros already know this but thought I would share with the DIYers like myself:

* For vinegar descaling, use 2 parts water to 1 part vinegar ratio and run for 90 minutes to 120 minutes. The few videos I watched ....no one mentioned the ratio, so I decided to ask the Navien expert since I was talking with him for Navien specific tankless heaters.

* He stated you can purchase and install an automatic descaling device that resides in front of your tankless cold water input pipe. While this can reduce your manual descaling intervals to perhaps every two years, you now have to maintain the charcoal filter once a year for this auto descale device. I am going to pass on this since I already had the sump pump on hand for other under the house water issues and it isn't a big deal to run vinegar through the system once a year.

Warranty info

* He stated if your Navien is = or less than 5 years old, then Navien will send you the parts for FREE under warranty along with FREE shipping. I would have qualified for a free check valve but I didn't wait for this call today and had already ordered the check valve online yesterday, FED EXed the parts.

Hope that provides a little clarity and help to the DIY community. Thanks everyone for your help.

Stuart
 

Bannerman

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this can consequently mislead you into believing you have this 3-way valve in your NPE 240A. This part does NOT exist in the NPE 240A.
The NPE-240A models utilize a 2-way valve. This valve is to manually select the recirculation flow path to the pump inlet whether Internal (from heat exchanger > buffer tank > 2-way valve > pump) or External (heat exchanger > buffer tank > recirculation loop through home > recirculation return connection > pump). The video included by FDNY in post #2 above, pertains to a Navien NCB Combi Boiler device, not an NPE series water heater.

Since your NPE-240 is an 'A' model, it incorporates a buffer tank which will also reduce the amount of 'cold water sandwich' experienced. Because a tankless will only fire when there is water flow, some amount of cold water will initially pass through the heat exchanger before the flame is developed and achieves maximum heat output. The WAV will reduce the incoming water flow rate while the heat output is not yet fully developed which will reduce the amount of cold water initially flowing out to the home's fixtures. Because the initial cold water leaving the heat exchanger will mix with hot water already contained in the buffer tank, the resulting outflow from the buffer tank to the home fixtures will be mainly warm, not cold as it would be if there was no buffer tank.
 

ogawas

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Another tip:

* The 2 way switch valve part number in the NPE 240A manual = 30008245A

Limited Google searches and resulting suppliers did not or no longer have 30008245A.

I left a message with suppliesdepot.com asking if they sold 30008245A. They responded:

* The new / substitute part number for the NPE 240A 2 way valve = 30008360A

I purchased two of these from suppliesdepot.com.

These arrived today. I installed the new two way valve (30008360A) and the family took showers and used the faucets subsequent to installation. Zero issues so far with this new valve. I will post if an issue comes up.

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@Bannerman,

Yes, I noticed @FDNY referred a link to a video with Navien NCB and I did not pursue that path. When I did more extensive YouTube searches for the NPE 240A....no one posted anything about the 240A (explicitly) and the two way valve switch. All YouTube video search results, that I saw, only referenced NPE 240 without any subsequent characters. This makes an uninformed person, like myself, think all 240 series tankless water heaters have the 3 way valve. Thanks to this forum and people like yourself, I was able to get this resolved.
 

ogawas

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Yes, you are absolutely correct there is NO explicit wording called "2 way valve". That is why I called this thread "...definition" and why I have been perplexed. Many of the words and terminology people are using do not explicitly tie back to the actual exploded diagram part labels and part numbers.

I agree that the words that people are using to describe the check valves "2 way valve" and "3 way valve" are much more descriptive, but this does not translate to actual part numbers and descriptions in the detailed manual / exploded diagrams and does not help when you do searches on Youtube or plumbing supply vendors like suppliesdepot.com and bostonheatingsupply.com. If you do not have the precise wording, you will not be able to search and buy the right part. "2 way valve" for Navien is NOT going to help you buy from boston or suppliesdepot.

And this is the crux of the problem.....using the actual mfg label references.

I easily spent 10X more time actually attempting to translate people's use of actual words "assigned" to Navien's actual reference part description in the exploded diagram manual than actually removing and installing the new part. I am not blaming people, btw. I really appreciate people's help. But the precision of words being used to describe actual part numbers and labels is what caused my challenges.

This is the first time I ever opened up a tankless water heater and troubleshooted. If I had a hard time translating, I am sure a lot of others probably encountered some issues as well.

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I looked at the pdf URL you linked.

I am not sure if you asking me a question or stating something else, but page 57 of that URL pdf clearly shows two different parts (for the check valve and the WAV); reference #9-1 points to the check valve and does NOT explicitly state " 2 way valve" even thought it is a two way valve. This is the "check valve" reference label used by Navien.

Reference #6 points to the WAV solenoid driven valve.

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Depending on your viewpoint, one could argue preventing a cold water sandwich, at a high level point of view, is solved with "one" integrated system. This one system consists of two subsystems to solve the bigger sandwich issue. One subsystem is the check valve and the other subsystem is the WAV. The combination of these two subsystems solves the overall cold water sandwich issue. The Navien detailed manual high level water flow diagram uses this point of view to "show", at a high level, how this cold water sandwich is addressed.

Hope this adds clarity to my thoughts.
 

ogawas

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Another tip

* If your doing your own maintenance on these tankless heaters (filter cleaning and descaling), my limited experience with these thankless filters (but long experience with engines) points that you should replace the "O" rings for these filters if your going to clean the filters.

After cleaning the 3 filters on my NPE 240A, I noticed these started to drip water. I replaced the "O" ring and this solved the filter drip issue. Same when you change your oil filter on your car, right? You would not change the filter without putting on the new vendor provided "O" ring on the filter.
 

Bannerman

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Each of the parts listed above, are different individual components. Each component is referred to within the Parts list drawing and the Supplies depot website as the names I specified.

As you advised in post #9, you resolved your issue by replacing part #30008360A which is the Check-Valve, not the 2-way valve.
 
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