Need help installing 3x4 lead drain pipe on 3" steel pipe

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Patrick Dubois, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Hello,

    I'm renovating a bathroom and had to remove the old lead pipe section linking the flange to the 3" steel pipe because is was broken. I'm posting pictures of how it's looking now. A guy at the hardware store sold me a 3x4 6in section of lead pipe to replace the lead pipe I removed. I'm not sure how to install it however. The original lead pipe was inserted inside the steel pipe but the 3x4 section I got seems to be made to be inserted around the 3in pipe, not inside. How am I supposed to make this leak free?

    When looking around on the internet, it seems that the standard solution is to do a lead caulked joint. I'm in Canada and I read that this technique is now prohibited. I also saw some plastic flanges with a rubber seal that fits inside the steel pipe but alas my pipe is too recessed for this solution to work. Looks like the 3x4 pipe is my only option.

    Thanks for any help.

    IMG_4574.JPG IMG_4575.JPG
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    What is the inside diameter of that metal pipe/fitting?
     
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  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
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    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
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    New England
    It looks to me that the pipe in the slab is the top of a cast iron pipe and is showing a hub. If so, I probably wouldn't try to use a lead piece to go to a new toilet flange. The old one would typically have had a brass sleeve leaded into the hub, then the lead bend would be soldered to the top of the brass sleeve. You can't solder to the cast iron pipe...when leading in a joint, it is actually the oakum that makes the seal, the lead just holds everything in place.

    Fernco makes a donut that will seal into the hub and around a pvc pipe http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/donuts-o-rings/donuts
    Because there is no standard for the exact size of the hub, they make lots of different incremental OD donuts. Get the right one, and, if the pipe is actually 3" OD, you'd go with a 3" pvc or abs stub, then the same material flange. You'll need to maintain some space around the pipe to slip the flange's hub around the pipe, and you'd want to make a sleeve to provide room for it and fill the hole around it with some cement so you'd have someplace to anchor the flange. You'd remove the sleeve before gluing on the new flange. If it were a 4" ID pipe, you could use a flange that fit inside the pipe, but don't do that with a 3" pipe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Plumber
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    Bothell, Washington
    They make rubber bushings that fit in the cast iron hub. You can push a new plastic pipe into that with a new closet flange.
    It would be a bit similar to the photo below, but on the vertical.

    [​IMG]

    The rubber bushing replacing what had been a lead poured joint.

    [​IMG]

    They make these in 4" and in 3"
     
  6. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

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    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    You guys are fast, thanks.
    To answer the question above, the metal pipe is 3" ID. Would the rubber bushing idea still work? I'll also look for the Fernco donut idea above. I haven't seen any of these two products at the big box HW store. I'll actually go to a proper plumbing store tomorrow, hopefully they'll have one of the product you guys suggested.
     
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    To be clear, is the metal that is 3.75 inches below the floor level 3 inches ID, or is that 3 inches the ID of the pipe that is below what seems to look like a flared portion that is near the top of the metal? Because if there is a 4 inch ID portion at the top, there may be a simpler solution.
     
  8. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

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    Mar 15, 2015
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    Quebec, Canada
    The shadows in the picture are a little bit misleading. There's no flaring, it's really 3" ID for the pipe that is 3.75" below floor level. You guys are right that this section is a hub maybe 3" long but it doesn't increase the size of the pipe. I can't measure it but the metal pipe that is below the hub also appears to be 3" ID.
     
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    Alert: http://www.siouxchief.com/products/drainage/residential/closet-flanges/pushtite says that the 888-GPM (PVC) or 888-GAM (ABS) is a 3" inside fit gasket with SS swivel ring, 4"-long tailpiece toilet flange. If that description is true, and your pipe is 3.0 inches ID, and if the pipe is high enough, your problems would be minimal. The 4 inch tailpiece should put the gasket into your pipe.

    You might have to fill part of your hole with concrete or mortar mix to give you something to screw in, if your hole in the concrete is too big. It turns out there is a styrofoam closet flange spacer to help form that concrete: http://168.215.203.131/prod/cat12/spacers_boxes/spacers.php.

    Now if the picture on that Sioux Chief page is correct, that differs from the description. But if these picture of 888-GAM and 888-GPM are correct, and I suspect they are, I think you might find it worth investigating further.

    If things don't look optimum, I still think you might make it work. Careful measurement is called for.. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2015
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  10. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

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    Quebec, Canada
    Nice find Reach4! 4" will be cutting it close since the pipe is roughly 3.5 inches below floor level. Actually, the instruction sheet for the 4" version of this product (887) says to cut the tailpiece and glue a piece of pipe of proper length to it :
    http://www.siouxchief.com/docs/defa...n---pushtite---instruction-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=6
    Maybe I could use the same trick on the 3" version, I sent the company this question. Not sure if I can buy Sioux Chief locally though.

    But I now have an idea based on that instruction sheet. I can easily buy an Oatey Twist-N-Set replacement flange locally:
    http://www.oatey.com/products/drain...flanges/twist-n-set-replacement-closet-flange
    Could I perhaps cut that Oatey flange and extend it with a piece of ABS or PVC pipe?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    pix_1.jpg

    I stopped by the local store and took some pictures and measurements. Dimensions may be a little off. The width dimensions were easier than the height dimensions.
    A 3.15
    B 2.97
    C 2.84

    D 3.25
    E 0.14 (hard to measure)
    F 4.18
    I did not put the numbers on the picture, figuring they would be easier to modify in the text. It seems to me that E+D would be the critical dimension.

    The mounting screws were on about a 6.07 diameter circle.

    Yes, the potential to extend seems to exist, but it might call for a non-standard pipe to splice in. On the other hand, the unit may fit great with your existing measurements. In a pinch, you could do a little concrete work to put the flange at the bottom of the tiles rather than the top -- which is normally the best. And no such compromises may be needed depending. It looks to me from your photo that the pipe is maybe 3.4 inches below the top surface of the tile. So you want to get a straightedge and measure carefully. Similarly measure the ID of the pipe carefully, altho there is significant variation permitted by the gasket.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  12. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

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    Quebec, Canada
    I'll try to take better measurements tonight. As added information, I stopped by a local plumbing store during lunch and they sold me these two pieces:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I don't really like it. I see how this could work but I'm really not sure that I'll have enough clearance to use a wrench to tighten the clamp to the metal pipe. The Sioux Chief idea seems much better and I found a distributor locally, I need to call to see if they have the part in stock. As you said, worse case scenario I could always break some tiles and concrete to lower the flange further (and then using a double wax ring).
     
  13. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Thanks a lot for the dimensions Reach4! That's extremely kind of you. I'm definitely going that route. I also found a solution to extend the pipe, I can simply cut the pipe and use this 1056-250RC Fernco coupling (or another similar coupling of the right dimension):
    http://www.fernco.ca/plumbing/flexible-couplings/stock-couplings#tid-186
    [​IMG]
    The inside diameter fits your dimension C above almost exactly.

    A bonus of extending the pipe that much is that the gasket of the pipe could reach below the current hub, which I don't trust anymore. I had to use a lot of force to remove the previous lead pipe and the hub moved around a little bit. I'm not sure that it's secure anymore. I can see a clamp around the hub at the very bottom of the concrete hole but there's not way I can reach the screw to tighten it (in fact, are you even supposed to be able to clamp a cast iron pipe :confused:). It must have been installed before the concrete floor was poured in. My only concern of doing this is that I wouldn't be able to sand the inside of the pipe that low and there appears to be slight corrosion. I'm a little afraid that this corrosion could affect the seal but maybe I'm over-thinking the whole thing (which I'm known to do).
     
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
    Location:
    New England
    If the ID is 3" and not flared, what you're looking at is not a hub, but just the end of the CI pipe, so the donut would not work. The flanges with the seal on their end can work, but you need to clean the inside of the pipe up so that it is as smooth as you can get it.
     
  15. Patrick Dubois

    Patrick Dubois New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Yes jadnashua you're right, it's not a hub. It's actually a 3" of pipe that is connected to the longer pipe with a PVC coupling it looks like. I took these two pictures this morning. So the little wiggling I mentioned previously is probably not an issue. I'd like to be able to tighten the clamp visible in one picture but I don't have enough clearance, unless a nifty tool exists for that purpose.

    I took measurements this morning as well and the pipe is exactly 3 1/8" from the top of the tiles after all, not as bad as I thought. The pipe ID is 3" and OD is 3.37". From the dimensions that Reach4 provided (D+E), the gasket will be fully inserted then, without having to extend the pipe.

    Thanks again Reach4 for the outstanding help you provided!

    IMG_4581.JPG IMG_4583.JPG
     
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