Mystery Jet Pump Pressure Issue

[GAD]

Hello all, I have an odd problem, I think. I live on a farm with two houses side-by-side (about 100 foot apart) that are supplied with water from a single Jet Pump located at House #1. This system has worked for 40+ years. The pump was replaced once during that time with other minor repairs over the year. Literally overnight the water pressure to both houses went to a dribble. Pressure had been varying for a while and I thought it was just a faulty pressure switch…after I went to fix it, apparently it is not that. Here is what I discovered…

A picture is worth a thousand words so what is described here can be viewed at this link: http://www.gadworld.com/plumbing/ .

With no pressure in either of the two houses, the pump was continuously running nonstop. I have shutoff valves that allow either house to be block the water line from the pump. So with both valves open, both houses have no pressure…only dribble. If I only block House #2, then House #1 returns normal with full pressure. If I only block House #1, then house #2 still has no pressure, so one would expect a sever leak at House #2…but there are no leaks.

One additional note, some months previous, the water supply to the pump was separated and the pump ran for about eight hours without water before this was discovered. About two days after this was repaired, we started noticing pressure variations at times, but it was not consistent. Sometimes (rarely) the water would go to a dribble but would return to normal after a minute or so. This went on over the summer. Once when the water pressure had stopped, we went under the house and just tapping the pressure switch box, the pump came on (this may have been a coincidence). A couple of months go by, and the water stopped to a dribble but this time the pump was running (not the switch I assume). This is what is described above. With no leaks being verified and the past episodes, it seems to point to something in the pump…seems like it does not have enough pressure to push the water to the second house, but it always had before.

 

[Valveman]

There is a 100' of line between house 1 and house 2. There has to be a leak in that line if it works fine on house 1. When you let the pump run dry for so long it probably got hot enough to cause a suction leak in the pipe screwed to the pump. A suction leak will cause the pressure to very, stop completely, and maybe start up again on its own. If the pump build to 50 and shuts off when the valves to the houses are closed or even when the valve to house 2 is closed, then the pump is fine and you have a leak you need to find.

Good drawing! What did you use to draw that?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

One way to be sure of a leak is get a 100+ ft of garden hose. Close all the valves and connect the garden hose to the pump, run it along the ground and connect it to a spigot on house #2. You'll need to get a female to female garden hose adapter. Open the spigot and allow it to run with a sink or two open to get a read on the flow, then open the valve three. If the pressure never returns then there is a leak in the underground. Do note! If you do this, you'll need to thoroughly flush the lines at the number 2 house from any contamination from the garden hose. You may want to purchase new hoses for this test.

Another way is disconnect valve 2 and connect a hose to the underground from an air compressor. With valve 3 closed pressure should build, if not you know where the problem lies.

 

[Reach4]

The problem statement implies that there is a big leak upstream of valve #3 in house 2.

If that description is correct, move your troubleshooting to house 2. Since the pump is in house 1, generating the noise, house 2 should be quiet. Solicit people with the best ears-- kids-- to listen for the sounds of running water.

Turn off every accessible valve in house 2, including the one to the WH. If the flow continues, consider adding some new valves to house 2. https://www.sharkbite.com/products/slip-ball-valve would be usable on copper or CPVC.

What I have observed is in agreement with WorthFlorida's assessment. If you use the hose connection idea as a further test, note makers offer "potable water" AKA "drinking water" hoses at various lengths, including 50 and 75ft. Camco has several, but there are others.

 

[GAD]

Hi all and I very much appreciate your advice. I like the out-of-the-box thinking! Let me add some more info. My inexperience is getting to me with this logic problem and I am probably missing some key understanding.

Thought 1:
If I only shutoff Valve 3 (in House 2), which closes House 2 leaving House 1 and the 100’ Line open, House 1 works perfectly. The pump turns on and off as expected and we have great pressure at House 1. Wouldn’t this mean that there is no leak in the 100’ foot line?

Thought 2:
Continuing, if I then open Valve 3, then pressure drops to a dribble of water in both houses and the pump will never shutoff. This makes me think there is a leak in House 2. All the pipes in House 2 are easily visible and I cannot detect leaks anywhere and everything is bone dry. The only two shutoffs in the house are to the washing machine and the toilet which I closed resulting in no changes.

This is where my inexperience may show…for the pressure to drop to low, would not the leak have to massive? For instance, we used to be able to run the water house at House 2 fine and would that not be like simulating a big leak of sorts, yet the pump kept up. Since this seems to have started after the pump ran dry, could something in the pump have become damaged so that it cannot push the water? Then the logic hits me...that when only Valve 3 is closed, the pump does fine indicating that the pressure i maintained all the way to that point. The logic makes my head spin.

Thought 3:
We did the hearing test and could not hear water running at house 2. Logic seems like it should b a leak there somewhere, but the system there is so simple an everything is dry and silent. The pressure gauge on the pump at House 1 is old and I have no idea if it is accurate. Like said, when House 1 is isolated and open, the house pressure is great. Maybe there is something up with the pump that there is something “extra” n House 2 that makes it not provide enough pressure? I am trying to save as much money as possible as it is at a premium right now and hoping it is not.

The Drawing:
Thanks ValveMan…I did the drawing in a program I have been using for 20+ years called CorelDraw. It only took 15 min or so (minus typing the text). It is a professional application from back n my days working in a printshop.

Thanks all…today I will be trying the advice given and will update. If you have any suggestions today, I will monitor here. Appreciated!

 

[Valveman]

If you only loose pressure when you open valve #3, then there is water going somewhere past that valve. And its gotta be a big break. Maybe a pipe under the house or in a wall somewhere.

 

[Reach4]

I agree with thoughts 1 and 2.

Thought 3:
We did the hearing test and could not hear water running at house 2. Logic seems like it should b a leak there somewhere, but the system there is so simple an everything is dry and silent. The pressure gauge on the pump at House 1 is old and I have no idea if it is accurate. Like said, when House 1 is isolated and open, the house pressure is great. Maybe there is something up with the pump that there is something “extra” n House 2 that makes it not provide enough pressure? I am trying to save as much money as possible as it is at a premium right now and hoping it is not.

Thought 3 I have problems with. So what if the pressure gauge is accurate? It goes down when the flow+pressure at the faucets is bad, and up when the pressure is good. It is close enough for this troubleshooting.

Did you bring in children to help listen?

"Maybe there is something up with the pump that there is something “extra” n House 2 that makes it not provide enough pressure?". Unless there is a pump in house 2, that makes no sense.

Was there ever a well serving house 3 directly? If so, maybe water is going down the old well.

Did you understand the bit about the Sharkbite slip ball valves? A better objection might have been that house #2 has galvanized pipes or the pipes are all in the wall or slab, and are not accessible, or you don't like going into the crawl space, rather than saying you can't afford them. Priorities.

Do you really not have a valve on the cold side of the water heater in house #2?

 

[GAD]

Hi guys, the pipes in House 2 are PVC and none are in the walls and all are easily visible (long story why this is so lol)...and no leaks visible anywhere.

The pressure gauge, the reason I said I have no idea if it is working is because when House 2 closed, the gauge seems to be accurate shutting on and off between the upper 30's and 60's.

The Sharkbite slip ball valves...love them and have installed them throughout House #1 everywhere I could back in the summer as I a had replaced all the PVC in that house with modern. I intended to add more valves at House 2 today if daylight allow...or continue tmar. The thing that I am hopng is not required is replacing the pump....which my gut says is damaged. Can the motor on the pump work but the pump part itself be damaged from running dry and it it only has enough pressure for House #1 (which is where the pump resides)?

Now the well idea...wow...it does have an old well that has not be used in 40+ years (back when I was a kid...this is a family farm), I will have to investigate that and see if there is any connection to it still that I have missed. I am really hoping for this one lol.

 

[WorthFlorida]

It seemed that valve two was closed and pressure returned but you did clear up that when you close valve three, pressure is good at house one.

Is there an irrigation system at house 2?
Any open spigots with a hose on it?
Have you checked the pressure tank?
Has the jet been checked that it is clean so you have good suction?
With house two closed off, is the pressure and flow seem usual in house 1?
Before this problem, did the pump handle water flow to both homes at the same time with adequate pressure?

When a pump runs dry usually the only damage is the seal on the motor shaft at the impeller housing. If it gets damage it may weep water and may lose prime when the pump is off. What discerning is when there is no pressure with house 2 open, is there any water flowing right at the pump with a valve open as if you were priming? A possibility is the impeller is damaged or loose and it cannot pump to meet the demand. Very strange, you may need to open the pump to look at the impeller and jet.

 

[Reach4]

The thing that I am hopng is not required is replacing the pump....which my gut says is damaged. Can the motor on the pump work but the pump part itself be damaged from running dry and it it only has enough pressure for House #1 (which is where the pump resides)?

No. The problem is in house 2.

Now the well idea...wow...it does have an old well that has not be used in 40+ years (back when I was a kid...this is a family farm), I will have to investigate that and see if there is any connection to it still. I am really hoping for this one lol.

Hoping with you.

 

[WorthFlorida]

?.........Can the motor on the pump work but the pump part itself be damaged from running dry and it it only has enough pressure for House #1 (which is where the pump resides)? .......

I just posted my comments just as you did about a possible bad pump. I listed questions as it's how I try to eliminate items and narrow down to the problem. Taking apart the pump is usually not difficult for irrigation or pool pumps. Not sure on jet pumps.

Another question, the suction line from the reservoir tank, could there be some blockage? When you get pressure back on house one, is the pump holding it's prime? That is no air is rushing out of a faucet?

 

[Reach4]

I just posted my comments just as you did about a possible bad pump. I listed questions as it's how I try to eliminate items and narrow down to the problem. Taking apart the pump is usually not difficult for irrigation or pool pumps. Not sure on jet pumps.

When either valve feeding house 2 ("valve 2" and "valve 3") is closed, everything in house 1 is good. When that valve is open, even though no water appears to be being used in house 2, pressure at the pump goes very low, and house 1 lacks water.

To me, that sounds like bright-line indication that the problem is downstream of valve 2 and valve 3.

 

[GAD]

Hi all, I came back to check here...quick replies this time as working against loosing daylight...

Is there an irrigation system at house 2? No
Any open spigots with a hose on it? No
Have you checked the pressure tank? Lol, I don't know exactly what that means, but seems to be working externally.
Has the jet been checked that it is clean so you have good suction? I really don't know what this is
With house two closed off, is the pressure and flow seem usual in house 1? Yes, very good in fact, better than before the dribble problem.
Before this problem, did the pump handle water flow to both homes at the same time with adequate pressure? Yes, for 40 years.
The suction line from the reservoir tank, could there be some blockage? I don't think so.
When you get pressure back on house one, is the pump holding it's prime? Yes
To me, that sounds like bright-line indication that the problem is downstream of valve 2 and valve 3.
I agree, but cannot find any leaks, but still investigating. I am trying Reach4's idea about the well maybe still being connected and I have just messed it somewhere. I think it may be coming in behind the washing machine and a small section blocked from site. I am here by myself and t will be difficult to move but will get it. In the meanwhile, I am going to install the SharkBite valves at House 2 to eliminate areas...I think this will be revealing.

A local guy said to change the pressure valve unit on the pump, saying something about the bladder or pump or something could not hold the pressure because of the bad valve and that just the extra ummf of the added distance of pipe in House 2 would make it collapse. I really didn't understand and will try the valves first. Does this make any sense to any of you guys?

 

[Reach4]

A local guy said to change the pressure valve unit on the pump, saying something about the bladder or pump or something could not hold the pressure because of the bad valve and that just the extra ummf of the added distance of pipe in House 2 would make it collapse. I really didn't understand and will try the valves first. Does this make any sense to any of you guys?

It's possible that it makes sense to somebody, but not me.

This is not to say that an adjustment of valves won't help some things, but I can't see that this could be one of them. Adjusting the valves might get a little more pressure at the house while valve 3 is open, but it is still going to be bad.

 

[WorthFlorida]

My question about the pressure tank and it's a bladder type, is the air pressure at the schrader valve correct. With the pump off and the pressure tank is empty, the air pressure should read around 28 PSI or 2 PSI below your low pressure setting. I doubt this is your problem but it's just one thing to check off that all is good.

 

[Valveman]

If the pump and tank are working fine to house #1 there is nothing wrong with the pump and tank. The wide open pipe to an abandoned well sounds like the best possibility to me. The pipe in the old well rotted off and you have water free flowing down the old well. When there is that much water flowing through a wide open pipe you can't even hear it like when there is just a small leak.

 

[Reach4]

The pipe in the old well rotted off and you have water free flowing down the old well. When there is that much water flowing through a wide open pipe you can't even hear it like when there is just a small leak.

I wonder if putting an ear to the pipes could let the flow be heard.

Usually there would be a valve between the pump and the rest of the house. Maybe there is such a valve, and maybe it works.

 

[Valveman]

Another way to test it. Close off valves #1 and #2. Let pump fill pressure tank and shut off. Open valve #2. If pressure drops and pump comes on, where is water going?

 

[GAD]

Hello all and good news I believe! I strategically added a new shutoff valve in House 2 (call it Valve 4) and now have some success.

Imagine the line after Valve 3 going inside House 2 and splitting into a T going left and right. Left goes into the house and right goes to the water heater and then to a washing machine in a long outside utility room. Placing a valve between the T and the a water heater, I now have cold water inside the house (as the cold water into the water heater is now blocked). Between the water heater and the washing machine is what appears to be a simple straight pipe but it does go behind the indoor portion of a HVAC unit installed some years ago. Well guess what? This straight pipe I believe has a T in it as well that goes to the old well! I can't get behind the HVAC unit to see, but it has to be there. I vaguely remember the well "T" being somewhere there when I was a kid.

So I now have cold water in the house but because I could not put the shutoff valve on the other side of the water heater, I don't have hot water...as well as the washing machine is now blocked too. I am positive the idea of the old well being the culprit of the missing water (with no apparent leaks) is correct! I will have to run a new line to the water heater and washing machine to bypass the wall T (which is inaccessible due to the placement of the HVAC unit).

So I am grateful to you all. If any of you are ever through Knoxville, TN, send me a message and a good steak dinner will be in each of your future!

 

[Valveman]

If you can find where the pipe went to the well outside you should be able to plug the line. Glad Reach figured it out!