Mortar/tile pan compared to solid one piece pan

[lab]

what is your opinion of installing a shower pan constructed with a pvc liner, mortar & tile, verses a porcelain/steel pan...cast iron maybe ? how about Vikrell ? We seem to find it hard finding a contractor in this area that can handle complex installations..simplicity seems to be the answer. Your input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
LAB

 

[Jadnashua]

I like a tiled shower, but the industry standards setter (TCNA) says 70-80% of them are not installed properly. It work fine and lasts a long time IF it is done correctly according on one of the accepted industry standards, isn't really all that hard, but is VERY detail oriented...mess with one point, and it can cause a failure, some of which can take a long time to exhibit themselves.

Even installing a premade pan has it's problem if it isn't done right. Given the choices, if I went that route, I'd probably go with either a solid surface material (synthetic stone like Corian), or cast iron.

There are lots of ways to build an acceptable tiled shower. I prefer the TCNA build method B422, which uses a surface applied boned membrane. Instead of a preslope, liner, setting bed, then tile, it uses a preslope, and a waterproof membrane that has the tile bonded directly to it. This goes up the walls as well, so that there is very little that can get wet or stay that way.

Keep in mind, a correctly built shower is, or should be, water-tight before even the tile is installed. Some people forget that fact. IOW, the tile is NOT the waterproof surface, it is what's underneath, the tile is the decorative, wear surface.

To give you an example of one company who makes materials to do this (they are not the only one, but are the oldest using B422) is www.schluter.com check out the Kerdi shower handbook and view a video or two.

If you want to go that route, you might want to post a query at www.johnbridge.com in their professional's corner and ask if they have any member in your area.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[lab]

I like a tiled shower, but the industry standards setter (TCNA) says 70-80% of them are not installed properly. It work fine and lasts a long time IF it is done correctly according on one of the accepted industry standards, isn't really all that hard, but is VERY detail oriented...mess with one point, and it can cause a failure, some of which can take a long time to exhibit themselves.

Even installing a premade pan has it's problem if it isn't done right. Given the choices, if I went that route, I'd probably go with either a solid surface material (synthetic stone like Corian), or cast iron.

There are lots of ways to build an acceptable tiled shower. I prefer the TCNA build method B422, which uses a surface applied boned membrane. Instead of a preslope, liner, setting bed, then tile, it uses a preslope, and a waterproof membrane that has the tile bonded directly to it. This goes up the walls as well, so that there is very little that can get wet or stay that way.

Keep in mind, a correctly built shower is, or should be, water-tight before even the tile is installed. Some people forget that fact. IOW, the tile is NOT the waterproof surface, it is what's underneath, the tile is the decorative, wear surface.

To give you an example of one company who makes materials to do this (they are not the only one, but are the oldest using B422) is www.schluter.com check out the Kerdi shower handbook and view a video or two.

If you want to go that route, you might want to post a query at www.johnbridge.com in their professional's corner and ask if they have any member in your area.

what is your opinion of installing a shower pan constructed with a pvc liner, mortar & tile, verses a porcelain/steel pan...cast iron maybe ? how about Vikrell ? We seem to find it hard finding a contractor in this area that can handle complex installations..simplicity seems to be the answer. Your input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
LAB

Thanks for your knowledgeable opinion. I too am retired...retired Air Force. My wife & I are trying to prepare our home for our "senior" years, thus the "walk in shower. My expertise is not in plumbing, which is quite obvious. We had a bath tub/ walk in shower conversion done about 18 months ago...& relied totally on the reputation & referrals of the contractor. I had never even heard of a pan constructed with a liner, mortar, &
tile. It turned out to be a thing of beauty..fantastic tile job. The down side, occasionally we can smell strong sewer gas coming up out of the drain. I temporarily remedied that by installing a drain stopper in the drain & removing it while showering. The contractor has gone out of business & is no longer listed. It seems like our only options left are , 1. live with it & use the stopper method, or 2. do the whole thing over. We have no other issues with the installation except the smell, which didn't exist prior to the contractors drain conversion.
There also is no guarantee that the next contractor wouldn't leave us with "hidden problems" Between a "rock & a hard place". We would appreciate any suggestions/ opinions that you or other members may have.
As I mention before, we are retire, have a modest home & a modest retirement income, so money is an issue.
Thanks,
LAB

 

[DougB]

what is your opinion of installing a shower pan constructed with a pvc liner, mortar & tile, verses a porcelain/steel pan...cast iron maybe ? how about Vikrell ? We seem to find it hard finding a contractor in this area that can handle complex installations..simplicity seems to be the answer. Your input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
LAB

I installed a Tile Redi shower pan - worked well, and has an integrated drain.

 

[Jadnashua]

If the drain is not properly vented, or it has a particularly long riser, or the trap is offset from the riser, it can leave a lot of area to accumulate crud, and if the vent isn't correct, leave the whole thing open directly to the sewer. What do you see if you look directly down the drain? Can you see any standing water (like at the top of the trap)? Sometimes, if it's accumulated crud, you can take the grate off, use a long bottle brush and some good cleaner, and clean it out to the trap. Anything beyond the trap shouldn't be an issue, since the seal of water in the thing should prevent any smells from getting into the room.

But, if the liner is not sitting on a pre-slope, over time, a little bit of water at a time will percolate down and just sit there. The natural alkalinity of the mortar will keep things from growing for awhile, but eventually, the pH can lower, and then things will start to grow in that stagnant water that cannot flow to the drain's weepholes because there is no slope. Using (most) bonded surface membranes means that NO water gets down into the thick mortar setting bed used on a conventional liner, and the whole thing can dry out much faster. This is the reason why I prefer this technique of building a shower - the tile goes directly on the waterproofing layer.

 

[lab]

If the drain is not properly vented, or it has a particularly long riser, or the trap is offset from the riser, it can leave a lot of area to accumulate crud, and if the vent isn't correct, leave the whole thing open directly to the sewer. What do you see if you look directly down the drain? Can you see any standing water (like at the top of the trap)? Sometimes, if it's accumulated crud, you can take the grate off, use a long bottle brush and some good cleaner, and clean it out to the trap. Anything beyond the trap shouldn't be an issue, since the seal of water in the thing should prevent any smells from getting into the room.

But, if the liner is not sitting on a pre-slope, over time, a little bit of water at a time will percolate down and just sit there. The natural alkalinity of the mortar will keep things from growing for awhile, but eventually, the pH can lower, and then things will start to grow in that stagnant water that cannot flow to the drain's weepholes because there is no slope. Using (most) bonded surface membranes means that NO water gets down into the thick mortar setting bed used on a conventional liner, and the whole thing can dry out much faster. This is the reason why I prefer this technique of building a shower - the tile goes directly on the waterproofing layer.

A very informative reply & I thank you once again. When I take the gate off, all I can see is a sharp rt. turn about 6" down. Turning on a lavatory or flushing the commode next door sounds rather loud from the shower drain. I would have to guess that the "p" trap is dry (we use the shower everyday) or a "p" trap wasn't installed. If there wasn't a "p" trap installed, (here in Texas, we hang people for that)... what choices do I have ?
LAB

 

[ShowerDude]

What you can do is hire licensed insured professionals and get paperwork and document everything...next time that is.....

.essentially the tile guy thats no longer with you, really should have zero involvement in regrads to ptrap anyways for all we know your shower pan and weeps are working as they should?



Pictures help and we cant see your shower, but sounds like no ptrap can you access this from below and take a few pics?

Sorry to hear of this. Tough break texas....

 

[Jadnashua]

If you can hear the waste flowing unattenuated when you flush a toilet or maybe the sink, (can you see that flowing?), it really sounds like either the trap has been sucked dry (improper venting), or there is no P-trap installed at all...neither can be fixed from above without tearing things apart. If you have access from below (most of Texas homes are built on a slab, but if it's a second floor, you have a chance), then you should be able to figure out what's going on, but might have to remove the drywall on the ceiling (if it's on a second floor).

Plumbing code everywhere in the USA, requires a trap, so it should not have passed an inspection.

 

[lab]

If you can hear the waste flowing unattenuated when you flush a toilet or maybe the sink, (can you see that flowing?), it really sounds like either the trap has been sucked dry (improper venting), or there is no P-trap installed at all...neither can be fixed from above without tearing things apart. If you have access from below (most of Texas homes are built on a slab, but if it's a second floor, you have a chance), then you should be able to figure out what's going on, but might have to remove the drywall on the ceiling (if it's on a second floor).

Plumbing code everywhere in the USA, requires a trap, so it should not have passed an inspection.

I think we both have come to the same conclusion..This shower is built on a slab foundation, which means concrete was used to fill in the hole in the slab. I was not able to watch over the contractors shoulder, a good percentage of the time , so I can only guess what went on below the concrete patch. I think I am back to original options...live with it, or redo the shower with a very simple installation. We use to call it "GI proof". I would contract it out through "Angie's List" , but hire an excellent plumber that I know, to do all the plumbing. That's my best "game plan" at the moment. I am not sure if you can find licensed professional shower installers down here in Texas , but I won't go into that.
LAB

 

[ShowerDude]

next time..Lab

You may:

If you aren't home or around while the works is being done.....Request pictures of particular key processes that you deem important. especially when hiring anyone from an online site like craigslist.


call this "Full disclosure" or "Transparency"

 

[lab]

I will keep in mind all your suggestions ,etc. The suggested reditile is another option. Certainly has been a learning experience.
Thanks again,
Lab. PS...I am a transplanted vermonter

 

[DIY Showers]

Personally I would go with a solid surface pan, and Onyx wall panels. They are a reliable, and easy to maintain alternative to tile and cast iron tubs. Unlike cast iron or fiberglass pans you have many granite color options, with the ability to have color matched and textured walls. I have been in the industry for 15 years, and have seldom come across an unhappy customer.


Many installers are now offering Onyx products, but if you are open to the idea of installing the product yourself, you can take a look at the solid surface shower kits at DIY Showers.