MMSA - Materials and Methods Standards Association

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    What is MMSA?
    The purpose and objective of the Association shall be to establish standards of quality and performance of materials and methods for installation and use in the ceramic tile and dimensional stone industries.

    Who can become a member?
    Any corporation, firm, or individual engaged in both the manufacture and sale of products of the industry shall be eligible for regular membership. The number of members shall be unlimited.

    Why is MMSA in existence?
    MMSA was created to establish industry standards for all materials in common usage in the ceramic tile trade, not just a few made under a license agreement.

    What does MMSA do for the ceramic tile contractor?
    MMSA serves the contractor in many ways. Representatives of MMSA are members of the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) A108 Committee, the Tile Council of America Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation Committee, and the Marble Institute of America design manual committee. All members of MMSA share non secret technical data and participate in a free exchange of problems and solutions for the betterment of the tile trade.

    How does an installing contractor know if the material he uses is made by a quality-conscious MMSA member?
    Look for the MMSA Hallmark on the bag or bucket.

    How do MMSA Hallmarked products benefit the installing contractor?

    He gains the assurance of using the highest quality material he can purchase and he patronizes a manufacturer who supports his trade.


    Information above posted from this link.
     
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Joining the MMSA

    I filled in the application to join just now. There is no space for Canadian address so I hope they accept Canadian members. I will be curious to see how the voting process is handled and what they ask of their members. So far the group looks small.

    Current Members of the MMSA are listed below as are the consult members:

    Current Members
    • Akzo Nobel
    • Amorim Industrial Solutions
    • BASF National Applied Construction Products
    • Bonsal Company
    • Bostik, Inc.
    • Custom Building Products
    • Dow Chemical
    • Ecore
    • Garland-White & Company
    • Kerneos
    • Laticrete International, Inc.
    • Mapei Corporation
    • Maxxon
    • Mer-Kote Products, Inc.
    • Noble Company, The
    • Oceanside Glass Tile
    • Schluter Systems, Inc.
    • Specialty Construction Brands, Inc.
    • Summitville Tiles, Inc
    • Texas Cement Products, Inc
    • Wacker Polymer Systems
    Consultant Members
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
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  4. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    Effective, standardized installation methods seem to be more necessary than material accreditation.

    In general, aren't sales driven by what the installer perceives to be the products that go in the quickest, with satisfactory results? You live and breathe this stuff 24/7, and obviously expect the most from everything. The average Joe won't go that far. I see frustration in your future with formal standards, John. Do you think you'll be able to help raise the standards for installation techniques?
     
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I'd like to see some simple job site tests for larger jobs and the ability of a homeowner to check the work of an everyday job if they so wish. Not lab test but simple ones. With basic tools.
     
  6. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Location:
    Minnesota
    John,
    You win the "passionate about my trade"of the decade award.!

    Now this is all sounding a bit Roe vs Wade. IMO.


    Sales and will always rule and sales is not an honest endeavor.

    I think you should start the JWSFGS

    "John Whipple Standards For Getting Shit Done"
     
    johnfrwhipple and Vegas_sparky like this.
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    So a week pasted and I was not connected by the MMSA about my request to join. I wonder if they where shutdown for this time period.

    Did any one else try and sign up as a member?

    Erik can you join? - being American and all that.

    Who can become a member?
    Any corporation, firm, or individual engaged in both the manufacture and sale of products of the industry shall be eligible for regular membership. The number of members shall be unlimited.


    So maybe the wording above means you can only be a member if you manufacture and sell products.
    So if you just sell drains like me but do not make them, maybe that means you can not sign up.

    Why do we need the MMSA then if that is the case? Is this not the exact same thing the TCNA is? The TCNA lists it's descriptions as this;

    Established in 1945 as the Tile Council of America (TCA), the Tile Council was created with the sole purpose of expanding the ceramic tile market in the United States. TCA’s research laboratory has developed and patented many innovative installation materials which have improved ceramic tile installation.

    In 2003, the TCA became the Tile Council of North America (TCNA) to reflect its membership expansion to all of North America – Canada, Mexico and the United States.

    The Tile Council is recognized for its leadership role in promoting the use of ceramic tile and in developing North American and international industry standards. Additionally, towards the goal of expanding the ceramic tile market in North America, TCNA regularly conducts independent research and product testing, works with regulatory and trade agencies, offers professional training, and publishes installation guidelines, tile standards, economic reports, and promotional literature.

    TCNA is a trade association representing manufacturers of ceramic tile, tile installation materials, tile equipment, raw materials, and other tile-related products.


    I looked up the members for the TCNA to see if any similar names

    Accredited Standards Committee A108 As of October 2013




    Voter Representative


    Organization


    Interest Category

    1


    BJ Yeh


    APA The Engineered Wood Association




    General

    2


    Eugene "Buz" Groshong


    ARCOM, Inc.




    User

    3


    James Woelfel


    Artcraft Granite Marble and Tile




    Labor




    Butch Woelfel


    Artcraft Granite Marble and Tile (alternate)




    4


    Steve Abernathy


    Atlas Minerals and Chemicals




    General




    Robert Smith


    Atlas Minerals and Chemicals (alternate)




    5


    Tom Cassutt


    Bonsal American




    Manufacturer




    Beverly Andrews


    Bonsal American (alternate)




    6


    Chad Bulen


    Bostik, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    John Jarnagin


    Bostik, Inc. (alternate)




    7


    Sam Hibbs


    Ceramic Tile and Stone Assoc. of Arizona




    Labor

    8


    Donato Pompo


    Ceramic Tile and Stone Consultants




    General




    Steve Raish


    Ceramic Tile and Stone Consultants (alternate)




    9


    Sam Widener


    Ceramic Tile Distributors Association




    User

    10


    Scott Carothers


    Ceramic Tile Education Foundation




    General

    11


    Gray LaFortune


    Ceramic Tile Institute of America




    Labor




    Dave Gobis


    Ceramic Tile Institute of America (alternate)




    12


    Scott Conwell


    Chicago Tile Institute




    Labor

    13


    Susan McClendon


    Construction Specifications Institute




    General

    14


    Tim Bolby


    Crossville, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    Noah Chitty


    Crossville, Inc. (alternate)




    15


    Dave deBear


    Custom Building Products




    Manufacturer




    Steve Taylor


    Custom Building Products (alternate)




    16


    James Neel


    Dal-Tile International




    Manufacturer




    Terry Adams


    Dal-Tile International (alternate)




    17


    Martin Howard


    David Allen Company


    Labor

    18


    Kurt Von Koss


    Detroit Ceramic Tile Contractors Association


    Labor




    Mike Maiuri


    Detroit Ceramic Tile Contractors Association (alternate)




    19


    Dan Marvin


    Florida Tile, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    Tyson Brass


    Florida Tile, Inc. (alternate)




    20


    Greg Mowat


    Forensic Tile Consultants




    General




    Daniel Dixon


    Forensic Tile Consultants (alternate)




    21


    Roger Barker


    Fortifiber Building Systems Group




    Manufacturer

    22


    Scott Fleming


    Glass Tile Consultants




    General




    Tom Prager


    Glass Tile Consultants (alternate)




    23


    Gerald Chioini


    Great Lakes Ceramic Tile Council




    Labor

    24


    Robert Wessel


    Gypsum Association




    General




    Michael Gardner


    Gypsum Association (alternate)




    25


    Robert Daniels


    Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification




    General

    26


    Daniel Castro


    Interceramic




    Manufacturer




    Fernando Lozano Assad


    Interceramic (alternate)




    27


    Mike Hawthorne


    International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers




    Labor




    John Mason


    International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers (alternate)




    28


    Svend Hovmand


    ISO TC-189 Committee


    Manufacturer

    29


    Chad Diercks


    James Hardie Building Products


    Manufacturer




    Benjamin Batres


    James Hardie Building Products (alternate)




    30


    Steve Fine


    Laticrete International, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    Mark Brooks


    Laticrete International, Inc. (alternate)




    31


    Lindell Lummer


    Malibu Art Tile & Stone




    Labor




    Gil Chotam


    Malibu Art Tile & Stone (alternate)




    32


    Neil McMurdie


    MAPEI Corporation




    Manufacturer




    Aiping Lu


    MAPEI Corporation (alternate)




    33


    Chuck Muehlbauer


    Marble Institute of America




    General

    34


    Jim Whitfield


    Materials and Methods Standards Association




    Manufacturer




    Mike Boenisch


    Materials and Methods Standards Association (alternate)




    35


    Roy Gorton, Jr.


    Metropolitan Ceramics/Ironrock, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    Guy Renkert


    Metropolitan Ceramics/Ironrock, Inc. (alternate)




    36


    Michael Byrne


    Michael Byrne Associates




    Labor

    37


    Gary Ehrlich


    National Association of Home Builders




    User




    Larry Brown


    National Association of Home Builders (alternate)




    38


    Chris Walker


    National Tile Contractors Association




    Labor




    Dan Welch


    National Tile Contractors Association (alternate)




    39


    Nyle Wadford


    Neuse Tile Service, Inc.




    Labor




    Paige Smith


    Neuse Tile Service, Inc. (alternate)




    40


    Eric Edelmayer


    Noble Company




    Manufacturer




    Jim Wadaga


    Noble Company (alternate)




    41


    Mindy Costello


    NSF International




    User




    Dennis Gillan


    NSF International (alternate)




    42


    Brian Fitzgerald


    Oceanside Glasstile Company




    Manufacturer




    David Fatula


    Oceanside Glasstile Company (alternate)




    43


    Jamie Farny


    Portland Cement Association




    General

    44


    Richard Goldberg


    Professional Consultants International, LLC




    User

    45


    Tracy Hall


    Radiant Panel Association




    General

    46


    Sean Gerolimatos


    Schluter Systems


    Manufacturer

    47


    Armando Bergamini


    StonePeak Ceramics


    Manufacturer




    Rodolfo Panisi


    StonePeak Ceramics (alternate)




    48


    Joe Dutt


    Summitville Tiles, Inc.




    Manufacturer

    49


    Stephanie Samulski


    TCA Team, LLC




    General

    50


    Mike Micalizzi


    TCNA Underlayment Committee




    Manufacturer

    51


    Dale Kempster


    Terrazzo Tile and Marble Association of Canada




    Labor




    Rick Keeper


    Terrazzo Tile and Marble Association of Canada (alternate)




    52


    Gary Rodebush, Sr.


    Tile and Stone Council of Northern California




    General




    Tommy Conner


    Tile and Stone Council of Northern California (alternate)




    53


    Ron Schwartz


    Tile Contractors Association of America




    Labor




    John Trendell


    Tile Contractors Association of America (alternate)




    54


    Bill Griese


    Tile Council of North America, Inc.




    Manufacturer




    Ryan Marino


    Tile Council of North America, Inc. (alternate)




    55


    Josh Jacobs


    UL Environment




    General




    Paul Firth


    UL Environment (alternate)




    56


    Greg Hefele


    United Brotherhood of Carpenters




    Labor




    Steve Fuller


    United Brotherhood of Carpenters (alternate)




    57


    Steve Rausch


    United States Gypsum Corporation




    Manufacturer




    Scott Crandall


    United States Gypsum Corporation (alternate)




    58


    Greg Schad


    US TAG to ISO TC-189 WG3




    Manufacturer




    Tom Plaskota


    US TAG to ISO TC-189 WG3 (alternate)




    59


    Frank Woeste


    Wood Construction and Engineering Consultant




    General




    Peter Nielsen


    Wood Construction and Engineering Consultant (alternate)






     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I'm not a math wizard but from looking at these groups it appears that men like me, Roberto, Erik and other tile company's really have no pull or no say in any kind of specification. You would think that the working man - a man who installs these products "Who really is a USER" or a "LABOUR" person can vote on what kind of testing and standards we use.

    So from I can figure out today. There are committees of roughly 60 people. The two groups are almost clones of each other. In the end the rules they define are their own and the choice to follow them is voluntary unless specified by "Others".

    I'm with Roberto in the thinking there needs to be something better. Something where actual users have a say.

    What if the US did this.

    Have the entire NTCA member list vote. Have the MIA members vote. Weigh these votes as 20%-30% voting share so at least the majority of tile men can have a little more say.

    I think that would go a long way to making things more transparent and give access to more failures to the average man.

    Dave Gobis talks online frequently about being a committee person. So does Eric from Noble Company. I just heard a presentation from Dean and these men share similar stories.

    100's of failures all over the world. Yet - the details of each are not shared. Unless you are on a committee and in the loop - you are in the dark.

    This bugs the shit out of me. But sadly that is life.

    I have been a voting member of the ASTM for about two years. In all this time not a single tile related ballot has come across my desk.
     
  9. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Location:
    Minnesota
    When I need to pay for member dues is the dividing line for me.

    I can follow TCNA this and Marble institute that without paying for it. its good to know and understand their standards, but in the end its just like politics and its all lobbied for very similar to politics.

    I take ANSI and MFG specs to the bank. ?
     
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