Mini-split of 2nd zone

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Spfrancis

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We are in the midst of doing a large home renovation, that will increase our house foot print. This is in the North-East part of US, so the winters are cold. it is near the coast, but we plan on living there in 3-5 years, so it needs to be able to handle the heat, as well as the AC.
They will be residing the home(hardiplank), and re-insulating the home. They are adding a 2nd floor for our master bedroom suite which will be about 500sqft of new living space increase. Our new main level with addition will be 1900sqft, and the basement is 600sqft. So the idea would be the existing unit will handle the 1400+600, and the mini-split will handle the 500sqft.
The contractor has spoken about doing a Mini-split for this new level, and that would handle that, and keep the existing AC, furnace for the main level. We haven't been happy with the furnace for the main level, as it seems to take a while for it to catch-up once we turn it on. I'm thinking that with the new better siding, and new layer of insulation, that maybe that problem will not be an issue. The contractor plans on having an HVAC guy come out and do the calculations to figure out if the furnace and AC can handle the changes on the main level, and what size mini-split to use for the upstairs.
My question is around if we should do a mini-split, or just have a new(second zone) system put in for the upper level, and just have them run vents and, all the work they would do for that. If our walls are being opened, is it better to just have them do a 2nd zone..versus a mini-split to handle the upstairs. Our current heating is furnace, and it uses propane. I'm thinking that when you go to mini-split, it ends up being a heat-pump for heating, which is never the same feel as a furnace. Reading some other threads, I know that propane isn't as efficient as other forms of heat. No option for natural gas in the area.
 

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Our current heating is furnace, and it uses propane. I'm thinking that when you go to mini-split, it ends up being a heat-pump for heating, which is never the same feel as a furnace.
A mini-split does not bring in air, so you don't lose humidity in the winter.

If you get a new furnace, consider one that draws its air from outside. If you have the common design where combustion air draws from the inside air, and sends gasses up the chimney, it creates a vacuum in the house. Dry winter outside air comes in through the cracks, and humidity goes up the chimney.

While some mini-splits work below zero F, they are not very efficient. A furnace will make less load on your new generator than a big heat pump would.
 

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A mini-split does not bring in air, so you don't lose humidity in the winter.

If you get a new furnace, consider one that draws its air from outside. If you have the common design where combustion air draws from the inside air, and sends gasses up the chimney, it creates a vacuum in the house. Dry winter outside air comes in through the cracks, and humidity goes up the chimney.

While some mini-splits work below zero F, they are not very efficient. A furnace will make less load on your new generator than a big heat pump would.[/QUOTE]

The combustion air draw isn't enough to significantly depressurize the house. For a gas burner it's about 1 cfm per 2400 BTU/hr, so even a 100K furnace is drawing less than 50 cfm, which isn't much, given the low duty cycle of the house. But even 15% duct losses from a crappy duct system adds up to 150cfm of potential infiltration drive.

The dry winter air is from:

A: an air-leaky house

B: imbalanced or leaky ducts, creating air-handler driven pressure differences to drive infiltraion

C: excessive active ventilation (does the system have a "fresh air" intake on it somewhere?"

D: all of the above.

A current code-minimum house in the northeast needs to blower-test at less than 3 air exchanges per hour at 50 pascals pressure (3ACH/50) to meet IRC 2015 or newer code. Most existing homes in New England (even many antiques) would pass that test, or at least get close, but if the house seems extra-dry in winter it probably doesn't pass, unless the drieness is due to excessive active ventilation, or air-handler driven air infiltration from duct system design/implementation defects.

An Energy Star duct system needs to have room to room pressure differences of not more than 3 pascals (0.012" water column) at all air handler speeds, under all conditions, room doors open or closed. The total duct leakage may not exceed 4cfm per 100 square feet of conditioned space at a duct pressure of 25 pascals. Most existing duct systems will fail one or both of those key features. (Energy Star ducts have other parameters to meet too, but those are the parameters most related to dry air issues.)

We haven't been happy with the furnace for the main level, as it seems to take a while for it to catch-up once we turn it on.

A right sized furnace should "...take a while to catch up..." from a deep set back. The question is whether it loses ground at some temperature that is likely to be encountered more than 25 hours per season. ASHRAE recommends only a 1.4x oversize factor for the load at the 99th percentile temperature bin (only 87 hours in a typical year are colder than the 99% outside design temp.) Once you're at 2x oversizing and up the recovery ramps are brief, but the temperature maintanance cycles become so short that rooms on the far end of the duct runs or rooms with somewhat different heat loss characteristics such as bonus rooms over garages or sun-rooms, etc get short shrift, and are never comfortable. At 3x oversizing and up even the main rooms end up with a hot-flash followed by the long chill during maintenance burns in cold weather. For comfort you really WANT it to be running 70% duty cycle or higher when it's at the 99% outside design temperature or colder.

I'm thinking that with the new better siding, and new layer of insulation, that maybe that problem will not be an issue. The contractor plans on having an HVAC guy come out and do the calculations to figure out if the furnace and AC can handle the changes on the main level, and what size mini-split to use for the upstairs.

HVAC contractors tend to do a lousy job on right-sizing, and typically end up at 2-3x oversizing, out of the totally human anxiety about UNDERsizing and having to deal with the irate client at 5AM on the coldest night of the year. It's better to have an engineer or RESNET rater, somebody who makes their living & reputation on the accuracy of their numbers make those calculations, not somebody whose bread & butter is installing and maintaining systems.

My question is around if we should do a mini-split, or just have a new(second zone) system put in for the upper level, and just have them run vents and, all the work they would do for that. If our walls are being opened, is it better to just have them do a 2nd zone..versus a mini-split to handle the upstairs. Our current heating is furnace, and it uses propane. I'm thinking that when you go to mini-split, it ends up being a heat-pump for heating, which is never the same feel as a furnace. Reading some other threads, I know that propane isn't as efficient as other forms of heat. No option for natural gas in the area.

Mini-splits are great when right-sized for the loads, but over-rated if oversized. They are modulating heat pumps, but don't have an infinite turn down ratio. Anything more than 1.5x oversizing would usually cause it to cycle on/off during a large fraction of the season rather than cruising along modulating it's outpu up/down with load. Done right they run almost continuously, idling along nearly silently at low cfm except during truly cold weather. When you have firmed up Manual-J heating & cooling load numbers, a good place to sort out which mini-splits or heat pumps can handle those loads is to search the NEEP website.

From an operational cost point of view, in most locations it's cheaper to run a mini-split than with condensing propane furnace. In fact, replacing the furnace with a right sized cold climate heat pump (or a ducted mini-split) might be the right thing to do for comfort. Nate Adams is a former insulation contractor in Cleveland OH who has made a business and career out of fixing comfort problems in existing houses. More often that not, arriving at the "comfort" destination involves air sealing & insulating the house combined with DOWN SIZING the HVAC. His house whisperer blog has several HVAC and comfort discussion videos & free chapters from his book, and his business website has a number of well documented case study examples of real projects, and what was done to get it right. Since you're in the middle of major house hacking & insulation, it's worth reviewing some of those.

Since you have a heating history on the place it's possible to estimate your whole house heat load and oversizing factor of the "before upgrades" picture using fuel use and heating degree data, essentially using the existing furnace as the measuring instrument. That's a fairly quick & easy starting point for getting a handle on where it will be "after upgrades".

Very often the total heat load can go DOWN after adding a second floor, if the second floor is tight and code-min or better, and some effort was applied to air sealing & insulating the lower level (including the basement/foundation walls). Heat loss is largely a function of the total surface area- the second floor may be doubling the wall area, but the attic/ roof area remains about the same. If the prior attic was an air-leaky R25 and the new one is super tight R49 the roof losses and infiltration losses go way down.

Whatever you do for the new HVAC upstairs, do NOT install ducts & air handlers in the attic above the insulation. While that's a bad enough idea even in the south, it's an efficiency and ice-dam formation disaster in New England/New York and similar climates. Yet somehow HVAC contractors still seem to run AC ducts in the attic, creating a cascade of cold ( and condensation/frost inside the ducts) all winter, and lower system efficiency during the summer. Keeping all the ducts & air handlers inside the pressure and insulation boundary of the house reduces the comfort & efficiency hits from leaks, and reduces the parasitic losses.
 

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BTW: Got a ZIP code for that house? (For weather data and design temperatures purposes.)
 

Spfrancis

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I will need to spend some time reading through your reply Dana...a lot of detail in the reply. Thank you for that.
 

Spfrancis

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From an operational cost point of view, in most locations it's cheaper to run a mini-split than with condensing propane furnace. In fact, replacing the furnace with a right sized cold climate heat pump (or a ducted mini-split) might be the right thing to do for comfort. Nate Adams is a former insulation contractor in Cleveland OH who has made a business and career out of fixing comfort problems in existing houses. More often that not, arriving at the "comfort" destination involves air sealing & insulating the house combined with DOWN SIZING the HVAC. His house whisperer blog has several HVAC and comfort discussion videos & free chapters from his book, and his business website has a number of well documented case study examples of real projects, and what was done to get it right. Since you're in the middle of major house hacking & insulation, it's worth reviewing some of those.
So Dana, you think that even retiring my existing current propane-based furnace, and go with a ducted mini-split to replace the main house heating, and then go with another minisplit for the new top level that is "right-sized". I will look at Nate's blog for sure.
 

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I will need to spend some time reading through your reply Dana...a lot of detail in the reply. Thank you for that.

The 99% outside design temp in Rehoboth/Dewey Beach DE is likely to be within a degree of +17F, which make picking a mini-split a bit easier, since the AHRI listed heating capacity is tested at +17F.

The binned hourly mean temperature in January is about +40F, a temperature at which the efficiency of better-class mini-splits is quite high. If you don't oversize a modulating ducted or ductless mini-split heat pump by too much it you can expect a seasonal average COP of 3.5-4.
 

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So Dana, you think that even retiring my existing current propane-based furnace, and go with a ducted mini-split to replace the main house heating, and then go with another minisplit for the new top level that is "right-sized". I will look at Nate's blog for sure.

That might make the most sense, if the ducts are reasonable enough to be tightened up and re-commissioned. Fujitsu's AOU/ARU xx RLGX minid-duct series has a set of beefier blowers, and cassettes sized from 1-4 tons in half-ton steps. The original & addition 1900' + basement probably has a heat load of under 25,000 BTU/hr (or could be made that low if tightened up and brought up to current code), which could be a good fit for the 2- tonner.

Carrier has also taken on a similar series of ducted mini-splits (manufactured by Midea, using Toshiba's compressor technology), and their 2- tonner could probably do it too. (Midea's US headquarters is in NJ, but it's not clear how good the support is if buying directly from them.)

There are others. But the key is to get proper load numbers up front, from an independent third party, not an HVAC contractor.
 
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Spfrancis

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So one general questions about the "load numbers" I was watching some youtube stuff on load testing...and it sounds like it is more of theoretical thing, versus something that gets done at the very end of the build? Does the load test need to happen after they have drywalled, or something. Is it something that should happen earlier in the process? Do people take the loadtest data, and decide to beef up vents, or put in more insulation? I'm not sure when I should be pushing for this to happen...during a "down to the stud" remodel with a new floor being added.
 

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So one general questions about the "load numbers" I was watching some youtube stuff on load testing...and it sounds like it is more of theoretical thing, versus something that gets done at the very end of the build? Does the load test need to happen after they have drywalled, or something. Is it something that should happen earlier in the process? Do people take the loadtest data, and decide to beef up vents, or put in more insulation? I'm not sure when I should be pushing for this to happen...during a "down to the stud" remodel with a new floor being added.

"...it is more of theoretical thing..." much in the same way that gravity is a "theoretical thing". The thermal properties of construction materials have known ranges, and components like windows and insulation are tested by third party certification laboratories. With a given construction it's possible to calculate the loads at the design phase to within less than 10%, sometimes within 5% of reality even while it's in the architect's design database, well before the first piece of lumber is installed. Standard Manual-J load tools aren't that accurate, but most will hit within 15% (always higher than reality) unless there are gross errors on the inputs being entered. That's easily close enough to specify the equipment.

Older than Manual-J is the I=B=R method, which uses similar methodology, but doesn't address cooling loads, only heating loads. It tends to overestimate reality too, but if done carefully with aggressive assumptions the overestimate is less than 25%. Whenever designing an addition or specifying/adjusting the radiation on hydronic systems or specifying a heat pump I keep an I=B=R using standard spreadsheet tools during the design phase, updating it as changes are made to keep track of the heating load.

I usually skip the air leakage/infiltration losses when running those numbers which tend to be overly exaggerated. Building fairly air-tight and assuming 5 cfm per window is usually close enough, or using Building Science Corporation's recommended ventilation rate: Floor Area x 0.1 cfm + 7.5 cfm per occupant. A worse than worst-case would be to use ASHRAE 62.2 ventilation rate of Floor Area x 0.3 cfm + 7.5 cfm per occupant, but those levels are way above any "natural" ventilation in new construction with 4' x 8' panel sheathing, and windows with real weatherstripping.

Heating and cooling loads are very rarely measured (even after the fact), but should always be calculated before installing new HVAC equipment to avoid the oversizing problem. ASHRAE's generic target is 1.4x the load at the 99% (or 1%) outside design temperature, but for 1-2 stage heat pumps it's usually more efficient to hold the line at 1.2x and use auxilliary strip heat to cover the shortfall during cold snaps. Since a Manual-J or I=B=R calculation can oversize by 15%-25%, holding the line at the calculated load (zero upsizing) is better than upsizing by 1.4x.

The current IRC building codes call for a maximum air leakage of 3 air exchanger per hour at 50 pascals pressure (3ACH/50), which is measured by a calibrated blower door. In most locations that doesn't get tested, but in others it's required to show the blower door test numbers before the inspectors will sign off on occupancy. High performance builders often test as soon as the exterior sheathing is up and the windows installed, prior to insulating. That's because it's easier to find and fix air leaks before the insulation is in and the wallboard is up. The building will always be tighter AFTER the insulating and wallboard goes in, so if it meets spec as a bare shell, it will be even tighter after the house is complete (that is barring a bunch of new penetrations of the shell after the first test.)

Whether it's going to be blower-door tested or not, whenever it's down to the studs it's time to inspect or enhance the air sealing details on the exterior sheathing, taping any seams in the sheathing, caulking the framing to he sheathing the full perimeter of each stud bay, either with polyurethane caulk (sticks well even to old wood) or better yet, purpose made ultra-low-expansion gun foam sealants such as ProPink or EcoSeal, which (unlike Great Stuff et al, don't need moisture to cure or adhere properly.) Any doubled-up framing such as top plates, window headers, jack studs etc, need a bead of sealant on those seams, as well as the seam between the bottom plate and the subfloor. With a powered caulking gun or a case of 24oz. purpose made sealant cans it's really pretty quick, and some of cheapest, best bang/buck thermal performance enhancements out there, and taking that step will almost always beat the code-max 3ACH/50 with margin.
 

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Thanks Dana for the complete explanation. This will be my guide for getting this transition setup correctly.
 
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