Lots of well problems

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by rypkr937, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Location:
    Western PA
    I have house that was built by a nimwit. This might be long. To skip directly to my question see the **

    My well is in a small "vault" within a slab foundation that is under my ceramic tile kitchen floor. The well began tripping the breaker so I tore up the floor and found broken insulation on the wire. This was due to not having a seal on top of the pipe casing and instead using a 1/4" sheet of steel that had holes drilled for the drop pipe and wiring. That drilled hole eventually rubbed through the wiring insulation and caused the trips.

    I still haven't been able to locate a proper seal for it. It is a 7" ID casing and I need a 1 1/4 drop pipe. Yes I've measured it many times, it's 7" ID. Does anybody know where I may be able to find one?

    While tearing up my tile I found extreme water damage to plywood subflooring due to high moisture in the vault. There is a small leak somewhere on the copper manifold the connects the pressure tank, pressure, gauge, and supply and discharge piping. I am going to replumb all of this, but I don't want to keep these components under my kitchen floor. It's also likely moist in the vault due to condensation on the pressure tank, another reason I don't want to keep it under my floor.

    **I want to relocate the pressure tank and switch from it's current location over to the basement were it can be monitored and serviced. Half of the house is slab foundation, half is basement. The well is in a vault within the slab half.

    Running from the well vault, THROUGH the concrete slab, over to basement is 3/4" PEX. I want to connect the 3/4" PEX straight to my drop pipe at the top of the well and move the pressure tank and switch to the other side of the concrete slab foundation into my basement.

    The drop pipe in my well is 1 1/4" black poly. I have water at 19' down and I believe the pump is 45' down.

    Can I cut out all of the plumbing under my kitchen floor and simply neck the 1 1/4" poly to the 3/4" PEX and then 50' away in my basement attach the pressure switch, pressure tank, and hook it back up to my house?

    For what it's worth my water softener tells me that I usually get about 4-7gpm from the well if that is a factor.

    Thank you anybody who took their time to read this and may want to respond.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    7" casing is a bastard size. I doubt you will find a 7" well seal. You maybe able to find a 7X6 changeover so you could use a 6X1 1/4 well seal.

    3/4 pex is pretty small for 50', but at 7 GPM max it is probably OK.

    Trying to save some space you could replace the large pressure tank with one of these. It fits in a 14X14X24 area,
    PK1A close up.jpg
     
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  4. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Royal City, WA
    Does your pipe measure 7 5/8” on the OD? That is a common oilfield pipe size. Won’t hardly find it anywhere else.
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Yeah standard oil field pipe size, but not going to find a regular well seal. I have some Huber oil field well heads that would screw onto that 7" pipe, but they are made for 2" upset pipe. But would sell them cheap if you can use them?
     
  6. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Location:
    Western PA
    So what's going on here. I shut the pump off and drained the house. Pressure tank read zero. Pumped it up to 38psi and it just glugs back down. Where is this pressure going and why is there glugging water?



    Here are pictures of my mess. The 7" ID shafts looks about 7 1/2" OD but there is no way to put an OD cap/cover on it anyway as it's flush with the concrete around it.

    [​IMG]

    It then comes up and goes through a mess of pipe fittings. There is a leak here of a few drops per hour that appears to be coming from the bottom of the copper manifold area. This all needs replumbed.

    I'd rather just do away with everything in here and hook the drop pipe straight to the 3/4" pex in the last picture. Then catch that pipe on the other side of my house in the basement and hook the pressure tank and switch in there.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    I assume when you say "pumped it up", that you tried to precharge the bladder with air. If so, then you have a busted bladder.
     
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  8. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

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    Location:
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    With an air compressor, yes. No water comes out of the valve on top when I turn the pump back on and fill the system back up.
     
  9. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2013
    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    Yeah you’ve definitely got an “ugly” installation. Wonder how many mice or bugs have fallen into the well over the years. Ugg, don’t want to think about that.

    If I was working on this well, I would stub up some 6 5/8” OD steel casing and weld it the the 7” casing. Then I could use a 6” well seal. I would gut all the plumbing and start over. But that’s the way I do things.

    You do need to understand that 3/4” pex is an extreme flow restriction. It’s ID is about the same as 1/2” IPS pvc. 5-7 gpm is as much as you can expect to push thru it. It doesn’t do much good to have 1 1/4” plumbing to the pressure tank and then drop it down to 3/4” pex (CTS) or 1/2” IPS pipe.
     
  10. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    Couldn’t quite make out what was going on in your pressure tank video.

    You shut the pump off.
    Drained the water pressure off
    Inflated the pressure tank to 38#
    Heard “glugging”

    Did more water come out of the pipes?
    Did the air pressure in the pressure tank stay at 38#, or did it drop?

    If the air pressure dropped, you pressure tank is bad. Throw it out with the junk plumbing.

    If you were expelling more water from the pressure tank when you aired it up to 38#, you may or may not have a bad pressure tank. Need more info.
     
  11. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Location:
    Western PA
    I'm 100% with you about gutting it. Currently the system necks down to 3/4" pex shortly after the pressure tank (you can see it in the very last picture before it makes its run through my slab foundation over to my partial basement).

    BUT... will changing it to 3/4" pex BEFORE the pressure tank cost me pressure or flow loss?
     
  12. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Location:
    Western PA
    Yes, I shut the pump off, drained the whole house and the closed up the fixtures. The pressure tank read 0psi. I pressurized it up to 38psi and it made lots of glugging sounds and slowly lost its pressure back to zero.

    More water couldn't come out of the pipes because I had everything closed up. Where did the pressure go to?
     
  13. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    You have a busted bladder.
     
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  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Going to a larger pipe will not reduce either pressure or flow. To the contrary it can increase flow and reduce pressure loss.
     
  15. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

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    Western PA
    It wouldn't be going to a larger pipe. I'm talking about necking it down to 3/4 where it is currently 1 1/4. I want to put the pressure tank in the basement, but I have to utilize the 3/4 pex that runs through the slab (shown in the last picture).
     
  16. rypkr937

    rypkr937 New Member

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    It seems so. I'm surprised there is no water that come out of the Schrader though. I'm also still perplexed where the pressure escapes to since all my faucets were closed.
     
  17. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Joined:
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    Royal City, WA
    I understand and agree with your wanting to relocate the pressure tank out of the vault.

    Your biggest problem is that 50 feet of 3/4” Pex. If you can live with the flow restriction that it introduces. And I gues you already are, go ahead and move every thing. It may actually improve things. You are moving your pressure tank closer to your consumption point. You are also moving the pressure switch, the pressure sensing point, to after that 50 foot run of 3/4”.

    If you go with a cycle stop valve, you need to make sure that you are not over pressuring the pex. You’ll need Valveman’s input on that. He will want to know what submersible Pump you have, so he knows how much pressure it can produce at dead head.
     
  18. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Despite all the Old Wives tales, not all busted bladders result in water coming out.
     
  19. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    Water doesn’t necessarily come out of the Schrader valve when the tank goes bad. If water comes out, it is conclusive proof the bladder or diaphragm is bad. There is no air left in the tank, it is 100% full of water. If water does not come out, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the tank is good.

    Two weeks ago, I went on a service call. They thought the Pump was bad. They had already replaced the pressure switch. That didn’t solve the problem. It was a 3 hp submersible with two 80 gallon pressure tanks in the utility building. When I got there I checked to see if they had power, yes. No power going to Pump though. Disconnected pump wires. Did a megger test. Motor tested good. Temporarily replaced control box, pump ran. Checked pressure tanks. #1 water came out air valve. #2 had 10 psi, no water came out. Drained system. Aired up tanks. #1 drained out and would not hold air. #2 pressured up but would not drain. Still full of water. That’s why I bring a hand truck. #2 probably weighed over 300#. The bad bladder was blocking the water inlet/outlet. Replaced all plumbing and both pressure tanks in utility room. Installed control box with contactor, so a standard FSG pressure switch could be used. Now we will see how long the pump lasts.
     
  20. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    LOL! An 80 gallon tank can weight over 700 pounds when waterlogged. I use to carry a 38 with me and would shoot a few holes in those tanks to let them drain before I could haul them out. I guess people would freak these days for someone using a 38 as a tool when working on tanks. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  21. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    What pressure is 3/4 pex rated for?
     
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