Looking into DIYing well pump install on newly drilled well in the South Central PA region

[DaveAJA]

If you get an sqe or any variable pump system, you will pay through the nose when it quits every few years. That is the most unreliable pump system there is. Of course it will always quit when you need it the most. Good luck, you will need it.

Clearly not your favorite plan, nor others here.

I've yet to have a pump failure that was convenient and I've had plenty, but for sure I'm just one guy.

Do you have any third party data on failures? Totally open to looking at it.

It's kind of hard to believe the grundfos SQ series and factory engineered / integrated control is worse than every other combination of motors, pumps and third party hardware boxes?

- but my employees with them, and the drilling/ pump installation company could all be wrong.

 

[FredG]

Clearly not your favorite plan, nor others here.

I've yet to have a pump failure that was convenient and I've had plenty, but for sure I'm just one guy.

Do you have any third party data on failures? Totally open to looking at it.

It's kind of hard to believe the grundfos SQ series and factory engineered / integrated control is worse than every other combination of motors, pumps and third party hardware boxes?

- but my employees with them, and the drilling/ pump installation company could all be wrong.

Since you Know it all, why are you asking questions here? Go ahead and use the system you were going to use anyway. Nobody cares. If you have had plenty of pump failures, and still haven’t learned your lesson, thats on you.

I personally only know one person that has a sqe with a cu 301 controller, and he sets aside $5k every few years for service. The pump is only 7 years old, and is the only original part still going.

A decent pump system that is installed properly, can take a lot of abuse, and still function. Others not so much.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DaveAJA]

Since you Know it all, why are you asking questions here? Go ahead and use the system you were going to use anyway. Nobody cares. If you have had plenty of pump failures, and still haven’t learned your lesson, thats on you.

I personally only know one person that has a sqe with a cu 301 controller, and he sets aside $5k every few years for service. The pump is only 7 years old, and is the only original part still going.

A decent pump system that is installed properly, can take a lot of abuse, and still function. Others not so much.

?

I've never presented myself at an expert at anything here, and even said Im just one guy.

Isnt asking questions what forums are for?

Ive never owned a grundfos product so cant speak firsthand experience, but I suppose I did "learn my lesson" with each other failure.

You made a declarative statement and wished me luck.
Asking what you may have to go on that formed that opinion seems like a reasonable question.

My industry has analysts that create independent manufacturer surveys all the time, I figured there might be data to look at, but that I dont know where to go to look.

 

[FredG]

?

I've never presented myself at an expert at anything here, and even said Im just one guy.

Isnt asking questions what forums are for?

Ive never owned a grundfos product so cant speak firsthand experience, but I suppose I did "learn my lesson" with each other failure.

You made a declarative statement and wished me luck.
Asking what you may have to go on that formed that opinion seems like a reasonable question.

My industry has analysts that create independent manufacturer surveys all the time, I figured there might be data to look at, but that I dont know where to go to look.

Overall, I would take what Valveman says as gospel. Not sure how one guy knows so much about pump systems, but he does. My limited experience mirrors his. I pay very close attention to EVERYTHING.

Aside from owning 3 wells, I have recently started doing this as a hobby, as I’m intrigued with pump systems. I don’t get paid, just volunteer.

This is Goulds country. Virtually every system is a 3 wire Goulds wet end/Franklin motor(when they were US made), set on iron. A pump pull is very rare. They last 30+ years, probably because they were paiired with a 86 gallon(most common size) well x tank. Before Goulds, pump guys here used the cast iron/bronze impeller Berkley pumps with Franklin motors. Those 70’s Berkley wet ends are almost indestructible. Some are almost 60 years old and still going.

The most common failure is a DIY job/repair. Mostly pressure tanks, clogged or burned pressure switches, followed by control box failure(bad start capacitor).

No company lets anyone see failure rate data. It’s not in their best interest. You have to do your own research and/or take your chances.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Fred. I guess that is what happens when you fix pumps everyday for about 60 years. Lol!

With the CU301 the pump is called an SQE and will vary from 3K to 10K RPM. Without using the CU301 the pump is called an SQ and will run at 10K RPM all the time after ramping up to full speed a few seconds after the pump is started. The SQ seems to be fairly dependable and spinning at full speed all the time is a good thing. The CU301 controller is what gives the most problems. The CU301 is also what varies the speed between 3K and 10K. Going through all those different speeds causes every component in the pump or motor to go through their mechanical frequencies, which causes vibration. It is much better to just let the pump spin at full speed all the time.

The pump industry does analyses on manufacturers, to see what is selling the most. This is just the opposite of what last the longest. They hype them up and spend so much money advertising VFD's because they make so much money selling them. Anything that last more than a average of 7 years gets changed quickly. They never make changes to cause products to last longer, only to better fall in line with their planned obsolescence.

Anything that comes along in the industry that makes pumps last longer like Cycle Stop Valves gets labeled a "disruptive product". Disruptive products are only disruptive to the industry. Having a disruptive product on your well means every time you open a faucet water will come out, and this will keep happening for so many years you will forget where the water comes from.

 

[Reach4]

I read they now offer the CU 302, which does not need a programmer. There is a phone app that can program via Bluetooth.

CU 301 is discontinued.

Grundfos CU 302: What Changes Compared to the CU 301? - ENVIEQ

Grundfos CU 302 vs CU 301: all differences explained. Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, Grundfos GO app. Direct replacement for CU 301 — same footprint.

www.envieq.com

 

[DaveAJA]

Thanks Fred. I guess that is what happens when you fix pumps everyday for about 60 years. Lol!

With the CU301 the pump is called an SQE and will vary from 3K to 10K RPM. Without using the CU301 the pump is called an SQ and will run at 10K RPM all the time after ramping up to full speed a few seconds after the pump is started. The SQ seems to be fairly dependable and spinning at full speed all the time is a good thing. The CU301 controller is what gives the most problems. The CU301 is also what varies the speed between 3K and 10K. Going through all those different speeds causes every component in the pump or motor to go through their mechanical frequencies, which causes vibration. It is much better to just let the pump spin at full speed all the time.

The pump industry does analyses on manufacturers, to see what is selling the most. This is just the opposite of what last the longest. They hype them up and spend so much money advertising VFD's because they make so much money selling them. Anything that last more than a average of 7 years gets changed quickly. They never make changes to cause products to last longer, only to better fall in line with their planned obsolescence.

Anything that comes along in the industry that makes pumps last longer like Cycle Stop Valves gets labeled a "disruptive product". Disruptive products are only disruptive to the industry. Having a disruptive product on your well means every time you open a faucet water will come out, and this will keep happening for so many years you will forget where the water comes from.

This particular controller is the CU302.

Aside from bluetooth and wifi Im not sure what other (if any) differences there are between the 301 and the 302.

Sounds like if it fails I can go back to 60/40 and mechanically regulated flow.

 

[Valveman]

I think since they came out in 1999 the SQE is working on "generation 9" or more. Every year or so since 1990 every brand comes up with a new generation of VFD that is supposed to solve all the problems of the last generation. I don't think they want to solve the problems as problems are how they make money. They just want something flashy and sexy to make you spend more money just to make water comes out of the faucets.

 

[DaveAJA]

I think since they came out in 1999 the SQE is working on "generation 9" or more. Every year or so since 1990 every brand comes up with a new generation of VFD that is supposed to solve all the problems of the last generation. I don't think they want to solve the problems as problems are how they make money. They just want something flashy and sexy to make you spend more money just to make water comes out of the faucets.

Seems the big negative here is the controller vs. the pump itself.

Interesting how different industries use similar tech but some have almost no issues.
It's not like this tech is revolutionary or cutting edge I've had a VFD pool pump for 15 years with zero issues.

Excluding the voltage range, dry run, protection, when it comes to the pump I haven't found anything that offers a soft start without a horrifically expensive external box.

 

[DaveAJA]

Overall, I would take what Valveman says as gospel. Not sure how one guy knows so much about pump systems, but he does. My limited experience mirrors his. I pay very close attention to EVERYTHING.

Aside from owning 3 wells, I have recently started doing this as a hobby, as I’m intrigued with pump systems. I don’t get paid, just volunteer.

This is Goulds country. Virtually every system is a 3 wire Goulds wet end/Franklin motor(when they were US made), set on iron. A pump pull is very rare. They last 30+ years, probably because they were paiired with a 86 gallon(most common size) well x tank. Before Goulds, pump guys here used the cast iron/bronze impeller Berkley pumps with Franklin motors. Those 70’s Berkley wet ends are almost indestructible. Some are almost 60 years old and still going.

The most common failure is a DIY job/repair. Mostly pressure tanks, clogged or burned pressure switches, followed by control box failure(bad start capacitor).

No company lets anyone see failure rate data. It’s not in their best interest. You have to do your own research and/or take your chances.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Growing up in the Midwest I'd mirror the combos and common failure points.
Franklin /Goulds, AY Mcdonald was predominant, but I saw more than a few Sta-Rite Pentair Berkley's.

Aside from living rurally half my life and now, we had two family farms one quite large (1K acres) and one a small 10 acres and had two wells on each. I wish pump pulls were as rare for me as they seem for you.
The Northern Indiana glacial basins are loaded with sand and or clay and seem harder than many areas for overall life.
They aren't typically very deep though.

No manufacture in my industry publishes failure data, but third parties do detailed surveys and report and the customer base reports on how dependable everyone's gear is.

We're the last family owned American manufacturer in the television industry and as close as its possible to get to all American company. As a manufacturer of products our target is under 1% for the duration of any warranty, and we test everything twice, once electronically on a test jig, then by hand with a human and often burn in components.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

All I can do is add one humble data point. May or may not be of value. When I started out getting a well drilled (to 53m, ~ 174ft) the drilling company strongly recommended installing a Grundfos SQ1, "3" " pump. It was more expensive than alternatives, for sure, but for me (being in the UK so fairly close to the manufacturer in Denmark) it seemed to make sense. It helped that we'd had Grundfos heating circulation pumps in our last two homes and they, too, had worked reliably for years.

Our Grundfos well pump has worked flawlessly for around 11 years. The pressure and flow rate is exactly the same now as it was when I dropped it down the well in 2015. I've no connection to Grundfos, other than as a customer.

No idea if that's a good, bad or intermediate indicator. I do know that I've had a spare Grundfos pump here that's not yet been needed (writing this might just have given our old pump a death wish, perhaps . . .)

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Deleted - duplicate post for some reason

 

[FredG]

Our Grundfos well pump has worked flawlessly for around 11 years. The pressure and flow rate is exactly the same now as it was when I dropped it down the well in 2015. I've no connection to Grundfos, other than as a customer.

In your other post you stated that after a while, it failed to reach 72psi and had to be warrantied? Which is it?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

In your other post you stated that after a while, it failed to reach 72psi and had to be warrantied? Which is it?

That was the pump the driller supplied, which, it turned out, they'd put down into a load of sand. It pumped sand for tens of hours non-stop before I fixed the sand problem. I'm near-certain the first pump was damaged by following the advice from the drilling company to leave it running with it pumping loads of sand.

I cleaned the well out with an air lift to get all the fine sand out and fitted the replacement pump higher up. My view is that the first pump didn't have any manufacturing issues, it was just damaged by abuse.

 

[Reach4]

I personally only know one person that has a sqe with a cu 301 controller, and he sets aside $5k every few years for service. The pump is only 7 years old, and is the only original part still going.

I suspect next CU 301 failure will be replaced by a CU 302. It may or may not be more reliable, but it does not need the Grundos programmer to program it. The user can install a phone app.

 

[Reach4]

I cleaned the well out with an air lift to get all the fine sand out and fitted the replacement pump higher up. My view is that the first pump didn't have any manufacturing issues, it was just damaged by abuse.

Do you think that smaller diameter copper pipe extension on your air lifter helped performance?

 

[FredG]

I suspect next CU 301 failure will be replaced by a CU 302. It may or may not be more reliable, but it does not need the Grundos programmer to program it. The user can install a phone app.

I’ll ask him. I just know he calls the pump man when there is a problem, and it’s not cheap each time. Every area is different, but a visit from the pump company is never under $1k here, no matter the reason.

 

[Valveman]

While I appreciate any data point, there are always pumps that last 20-30 years. I have one that has been in the well for 44 years. But for every one like that there is another that didn't last 44 days from pumping sand or cycling itself to death. Take an average of all pumps sold and it will total about 7 years, exactly as planned by the pump engineers.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Do you think that smaller diameter copper pipe extension on your air lifter helped performance?

Yes and no. It definitely helped lift the bit of residual sand at the bottom, but did so more slowly than the original contraption. Back when I did this I was flying blind, as it was before I'd made the camera system to see what was really going on. With hindsight I'd not bother adding that extension, as the original air lifter did a great job at pumping out a lot of fine sand.

Although I got pretty stressed all those years ago, looking back it was educational. I learned a fair bit about our well and what works and doesn't work. Just wish I'd had this knowledge before I started, could have saved a lot of worry, not to mention cost. My biggest error, bar none, was to assume that a professional well drilling company would know what they were doing. I placed way too much trust in them and should have been more "hands on", checking their work in more detail and asking more questions. Might have pissed them off, but looking back I'd rather that than what I went through back then.