Lennox furnace making strange sound

Users who are viewing this thread

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
I thought I would post this to see if this has been properly diagnoised. I was getting this sound from my furnace, which is a lennox G61MPV-60C-091-10:
It is almost 10 years old now. It is making this ratting/grinding noise when the furnace turns on. It is a higher pitched type sound.

I had the furnace guy come over and he is saying that it is a soleniod and that it is attached to something that they would have to remove the rivots from to get it out, so they would actually need to replace the gas line, which would be $1300. It seemed like a 5 minute diagnosis, and that was just worrying me. It just didn't feel right, so I thanked them, and said I would do a little research. To me it almost sounds like a grinding noise, like it could be a fan. It just seems to happen when the blower comes on.

The furnace still works, but not sure for how long.
I saw some discussion about the inducer fan, which seemed like a more plausible type of sound


I tried attaching a mov file to this thread, but it was too large. Not sure the best way to share the audio.
Here is an attachment of the .mov file.
https://gofile.io/?c=g33aDc

Any thoughts would be helpful.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,459
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
I would think it may be a fan going bad. I had a similar repair done on my furnace. Well I did wind up replacing some sensors that had quit on me and maybe he's moving the pipes out of his way. As a plumber that part would be the easiest part of the repair. Spin off, and then spin back on. Done!
I don't see a gas line causing noises. You can upload your video to https://www.youtube.com/ and then post the link here as media.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,863
Reaction score
4,430
Points
113
Location
IL
What is the timing of the sound with respect to when the gas turns on and turns off?
 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
actually I do have a better video, and it does come on with the burners turning on. I'm trying to upload it now.
 

WorthFlorida

Clinical Trail on a Cancer Drug Started 1/31/24. ☹
Messages
5,755
Solutions
1
Reaction score
994
Points
113
Location
Orlando, Florida
Could be the solenoid for the gas actuator valve. I do not think it is the fan motor. It is hard to tell from the video, does the fan start before or after the flame ignition? Does the buzz noise fade away or continuous? Place you hand on the gas valve assemble and if it does originate from there you should feel it. If not it also could be a solenoid for the fan motor if there is one.

If the tech you had out as that fast on the diagnostics, it usually is a known common problem.

 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
yeah it sounds like that is what the tech thinks it is. He talked about a solenoid, but said it was rivited to the gas valve, so it would have to be replaced together. To your question about the buzz sound, it does seem to diminish after the burner starts. I will try the test for the gas valve.
 

WorthFlorida

Clinical Trail on a Cancer Drug Started 1/31/24. ☹
Messages
5,755
Solutions
1
Reaction score
994
Points
113
Location
Orlando, Florida
Furnace gas valves are not serviceable and parts are not available for obvious safety reasons.
 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
so could the right type of service shop actually fix the solenoid without having to put in a few gasvalve combo? It seems like a high price for replacing everything, and I'm wondering if a few extra hours of labor could actually maintain a sticky solenoid. I was watching a video that talks about maintaining a solenoid, with a similar sound to what mine is making.

I'm sure finding someone to actually do something like this may be difficult.

 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
I thought I would post this to see if this has been properly diagnoised. I was getting this sound from my furnace, which is a lennox G61MPV-60C-091-10:

[snip]

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Not directly related to the noise, but my first though is that a 90,000 BTU/hr furnace would be sub-optimally oversized for comfort for more than 19 out of 20 houses in the US. (Is it married to a similarly oversized split AC system using the same air handler?) That furnace has enough burner output to keep my sub-code insulated house at 70F at an outdoor temp of -85F(!) I suspect it's something like 3-4x oversized for your actual design condition load. With an oversize factor that large the duty cycle is going to be low and spiky, even when it's in the teens and 20s outside, and even more so when it's only in the 30s & 40s. Does it ever even step up to it's second stage (other than during recovery from deep setbacks)? Oversizing will still heat the place, but it's the opposite of comfort.

From a comfort point of view it's better to have it running a ~70-75% duty cycle when it's at the 99% outside design temperature, which means it's running most of the time when it's cold out, but still had enough capacity to cover the additional load during Polar Vortex disturbance cold snaps when it's well below the 99% outside design temp. That avoids the hot flash followed by the extended chill, and the run times are long enough to fully heat the rooms at the far ends of the duct runs.

Even though it's not more than about halfway through a typical service life, if you ever decide to replace it- right-size the replacement. To get a handle on the actual design heat load, run this math on (wintertime only) gas bills correlated with local heating degree-day data between meter reading dates. Upsizing by only 1.3x - 1.4x is about the right compromise between comfort and having enough capacity for cold snaps. For 2-stager furnaces it's generally best to size it such that the low-fire stage is slightly less than the 99% design load, if possible so that the duty cycle can still be over 75% even at temps somewhat warmer than a bitter cold snap.
 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
It will be a tough pill to swallow to dump money into a full system. The other thing that in my mind factors into the lower house furnace; we don't really go down there much. We keep the lower part of the house at 62 degrees from 11pm-7am, and most of the day from 10-5pm it is very low temps. The upstairs furnace is much more important, as we sleep up there, and I work from home up there.
The other thing that is bothering me now is that the Lennox furnace has a 10 year warranty on this furnace. When the company that serviced the unit called them, they said that the registration wasn't filled out, so that reduces it down to 5 years. It seems like a very self-serving thing for a vendor to do. It probably doesnt' help that we are just inside the 10 year mark on the furnace install date. I can't even recall getting the registration info back then. I know that the company that installed it gave us a contract, but I don't recall any discussion on having us make sure to fill that out.

I didn't realize from "worthFlorida" comment that the solenoid may not be serviceable. I was thinking that he meant that I shouldn't try touching this on my own for obvious reason.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
It will be a tough pill to swallow to dump money into a full system. The other thing that in my mind factors into the lower house furnace; we don't really go down there much. We keep the lower part of the house at 62 degrees from 11pm-7am, and most of the day from 10-5pm it is very low temps. The upstairs furnace is much more important, as we sleep up there, and I work from home up there.

Let me get this straight- the humongous 90KBTU/hr furnace isn't even serving the whole house, and there is a second furnace serving the upper floor? How big is the BTU output of that furnace, and how much space is it serving?

And how much space is the 90K furnace with the noise issue serving?

It's never cost effective to swap out a fully functional furnace. A competent professional diagnosis and repair should come in well under the cost of a new system. But swapping out insanely oversized equipment is sometimes the only way to resolve comfort issues.

Nate Adams is a contractor in Cleveland OH who has made a business out of fixing comfort issues (usually in older homes) using a combination of air-sealing & insulation upgrades and right-sizing the equipment. He is often put in the position of telling clients that they need to get rid of brand new but woefully oversized equipment in order to achieve their comfort goals (and that they just blew 5 grand.) He wrote a book on the topic, and has posted free downloadable chapters & short explanatory videos on his "house whisperer" blog page. He also has many highly detailed case studies of many of his projects on his main business' Energy Smart Ohio website.

It's worth taking time to at least view the short videos Home Comfort 101, HVAC 101, and HVAC 102 pages before buying any new heating or cooling equipment.
 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
Yeah, it is clear that these are oversized. I believe that on the tax record, the sqft for the top 2 levels is 3500sqft. The bottom is probably another 1200sqft, to make it 4700. Obviously way overkill for this system. I'm not even sure what the top unit is, but I'm sure it is probably a 3ton system up there. I agree that if I had a person I trusted in the area to do a true assessment, and size it as you state above, I would be all for that. I just don't know if I trust the regular HVAC guy off of the street to not just push what has the greatest margin. We also want to move in the next 3-4 years to the home we are redoing in Delaware, so I'm not sure sold on putting in a new system for that reason.

You know something that I like in this other site that I look at for VW diesels. They have a link in there for trusted mechanics that is broken down by areas. So I can find someone in the local area that seems to have the experience to work on VW Diesels. There probably isn't enough demand on this site for trusted HVAC guys like Nate.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Yeah, it is clear that these are oversized. I believe that on the tax record, the sqft for the top 2 levels is 3500sqft. The bottom is probably another 1200sqft, to make it 4700. Obviously way overkill for this system. I'm not even sure what the top unit is, but I'm sure it is probably a 3ton system up there. I agree that if I had a person I trusted in the area to do a true assessment, and size it as you state above, I would be all for that. I just don't know if I trust the regular HVAC guy off of the street to not just push what has the greatest margin. We also want to move in the next 3-4 years to the home we are redoing in Delaware, so I'm not sure sold on putting in a new system for that reason.

There is clearly zero financial "payback" on a new system, so just patch the ridiculous beast and be happy.

Efficiency-wise a ludicrous oversizing factor isn't much of a problem for hot air furnaces- it's primarily a comfort thing. For heat pumps and air conditioners it's far more important to size it correctly to optimize both the efficiency and comfort.

You know something that I like in this other site that I look at for VW diesels. They have a link in there for trusted mechanics that is broken down by areas. So I can find someone in the local area that seems to have the experience to work on VW Diesels. There probably isn't enough demand on this site for trusted HVAC guys like Nate.

Nate Adams isn't even an HVAC guy. He was originally an insulation contractor getting most of his work referred through state subsidized weatherization programs. But he's not an idiot, and saw that people were only paying for what was subsidized, when there were often more glaring and obvious issues creating their comfort problems than mere insulation. When he got sick of how those programs were working against the best interest of contractors and homeowners alike he re-adjusted his business focus and took a more holistic approach, selling comfort rather than R-values or BTUs, targeting a more receptive & better-educated/savvy/aware types of customers than the folks who would only consider state subsidized upgrades in a piecemeal fashion, missing the bigger picture.

He wrote couple of blog bits about his business transition on the GBA site about five years ago:

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-low-hanging-fruit-fallacy

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/hard-truths-of-home-performance

They recently reviewed his book on that site too:

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/energy-retrofit-advice-from-ohio

Very often comfort & efficiency issues aren't directly HVAC related at their core, but the HVAC and house really need to be considered together as a system, and adjust things accordingly. Most HVAC contractors only address the HVAC equipment, and most are pretty bad about sizing it for the load, erring to the sub-optimally high side "just in case" there's a cold snap where it bottoms out a -150F or colder.

Even though truly grotesque oversizing is pretty common, I still find it jarring when I see a 90K furnace serving the 10-15K load (of a 1200' first- floor). The design heat load of a typical 2x4/R13 reasonably tight 4700' house with clear glass double panes in Virginia would run about 40,000-50,000 BTU/hr (for the whole house) to maybe 55,000-65,000 BTU/hr if it has an unusually large amount of window area. (If it's a lot more than that the house probably leaks as much air as a wind-tunnel, a defect that's usually pretty cheap and effective to bring under control by addressing the largest or most important air leaks.) To max out the comfort with a hot air furnace the oversize factor needs to be no more than 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp. So even for an over-glazed 4700' home in your area the 90K furnace would probably be sub-optimally oversized even if serving the whole house.

I have some in-laws in central MA with an overglazed ~4000' "mid century modern" type house built around 1960 or so. When they bought it there were separate 5 ton and 4 ton commercial building type air conditioning units on the very low-angle roof (with a nightmarish scuplture of ductwork above the roof, not quite visible from the street) and a 200,000 BTU/hr boiler in the basement for radiant ceiling heat throughout. The equipment was capable of satisfying the thermostats, but the place was downright miserable in winter, even worse in summer. Their first major investment was to replace most of that glass with current code minimum low-E double panes, which was necessary, but not sufficient. It nudged the needle a bit but they were still miserable, and considering selling the place an moving on.

After consulting with them and taking a hard inspection tour of the house I talked them into taking a big financial gamble on building a whole new roof structure over the mostly flat roof creating a very low gable with 6" of continuous rigid polyiso under a membrane on the outside of the new roof deck, mothballing the boiler and installing a right-sized multi-stage gas furnace & right-sized AC with all of the mechanicals & ducts in the micro-attic (less than 3' tall at the peak) between the old and new roofs, with the sizing based on a full Manual-J calculation performed by an engineer. They ended up with a 60,000 BTU/hr condensing gas furnace and a 3 ton split AC, literally 1/3 the capacity of what had come with the house, and for the first time since the house was built it's now actually quite comfortable year-round, and you can only hear the heating/cooling system when it's dead calm outside, with nothing going on indoors.

I doubt that there are any HVAC contractors who would have steered them in that direction, but Nate Adams (probably) would have. The HVAC was just the frosting on the (fairly expensive retrofit) cake, but it's now a nice house to live in, not just to look at.
 

Spfrancis

Member
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Virginia
so I have an insulation guy coming out, that is supposed to be very good. I want to see what he thinks about the furnace, or if will even comment on that.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
so I have an insulation guy coming out, that is supposed to be very good. I want to see what he thinks about the furnace, or if will even comment on that.

That would be expecting too much from insulation contractors. Heat loads & HVAC design are only tangentially related to their business.

Some that SHOULD be expected from "...an insulation guy coming out, that is supposed to be very good..." would be what cfm/50 or ACH/50 (cubic feet per minute or air changes per hour at 50 pascals pressure) numbers he would expect from the house as-is, and after air sealing. The better insulation contractors in my area use calibrated blower doors and IR imaging to find and fix air leaks prior to insulating, and will give before & after cfm/50 numbers when doing the work. YMMV

Some insulation contractors who do air sealing as a service also do duct sealing diagnostics & remediation using "duct blasters" and measure the air leakage on the duct as 25 pascals, but it's not a strike against them if they limit themselves to the building's air tightness.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks