Leaking PEX Fitting

[Steveirvine]

Hello,

I'm hoping for help here, I gotta get this done in the next day or two! A bit of background, we had a remodel done about 5 years back. I wasn't happy with some of the work that my plumber's GC did and in retrospect I should have been more forceful to do this right.

We discovered a small leak on Fri on the back of our shower. I opened up the drywall and it looks like the 90 elbow joint to the left was leaking. Please see the attached pic. My regular plumber (not the GC's guy!) can't take a look at it Tue. So, I called up two plumbers recommended by friends.

One of them took a look at it and says I have to redo every joint in the whole remodel because he says those are cheap Home Depot clamps and the way the GC plumber crimped them was wrong. He says the clamps the were recalled by back in 2012 around the time of my remodel. He uses Uponor fittings and he said he has to research if Uponor fittings would work with this type of PEX (seems like he would already know this wouldn't he?) He also said he has to redrill the hole and put in a sleeve(?) and that the foam eats through the PEX. The thing that made me nervous about this guy was that his license had expired 5 months ago and he first claimed it didn't and then said he just renewed it. He is bonded however.

The 2nd guy is an old school guy who's been doing this for 30 years. He also uses Uponor and said the Uponor expansion crimp (? might have this term wrong) will work with this type of PEX unlike the other guy. Is PEX pretty much the same? I also had him look at the couple of other exposed fittings and he said they weren't terrible and he wouldn't necessarily rip it out. He said he had very few of them leak and thinks this might be a bad fitting. He's fully licensed/bonded and has been continuously for 30+ years.

Is it just a matter of one guy being way too conservative and one guy being much more practical? Thanks so much for help!

 

[Reach4]

He uses Uponor fittings and he said he has to research if Uponor fittings would work with this type of PEX (seems like he would already know this wouldn't he?)

It is possible that the pipe was Uponor but they used stainless steel clamp rings on fittings made for use with clamps. It is also possible that [name your own other very unlikely event] would happen.

I would try tightening up the clamps with a clamp tool if you can. If that fixed it, fine. Otherwise I would remove the clamps and put on new clamps. Those clamps can be removed with the right tool, and they can often be removed with a tool that was not designed for the purpose. Read up on that if it comes to it. Many clamp tools are not very expensive.

I am not a plumber. I have never used a clamp tool. I can see the benefit of that system. I have done a limited amount of Uponor expansion fittings, and have a hand tool for that. Benefits of the stainless steel clamp system including cheaper fittings, more selection, available more places, and the same tool handles multiple sizes including 3/8. 3/8 is rather neglected/depreciated by Uponor IMO. With the clamp system, you can assemble at leisure, and tighten the clamps when things are as you want them. Uponor does have its advantages too.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

The pipe will have the brand name on it.
I haven't heard of a recall on PEX lately. I would just fix the leak for now. You could also quickly fix that with some Sharkbite style fittings and a little bit of PEX tubing. Then you don't have to worry about the brand, as it fits over the pipe and not inside.

 

[Jadnashua]

FWIW, there are at least three manufacturing methods of making pex and each has slightly different characteristics. The only one that can use expansion fittings is type-A. It isn't written on the tubing, so you'd have to know the particular specs of a specific tubing to know if you could use expansion fittings on it or not. Type-A has the highest level of cross-linking, and thus, has better memory, and is the most flexible (and it costs more in general than either types -B or -C). Uphonor tubing is type-A. Others make it, but more common are types -B and -C since they're cheaper to make and people buy by price point more often than specs.

 

[Steveirvine]

Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone! It looks like at this point without knowing more, I should just fix the leaky joint. I'm mostly concerned about reliability especially since the 1st plumber indicated that the clamps are terrible. My biggest fear is that the immediate problem is fixed, and another one of the clamped fittings (maybe there are 5-10 of the these between the shower diverter, hand shower etc) springs a leak in 2 months! If there's a problem with using clamps, then I would rather just bite the bullet and have all of them replaced while I have the wall open.

Couple of notes:

1. Terry, sorry if I wasn't clear, the 1st plumber sending the clamps were recalled (not the PEX piping itself).

2. jadnashua, I looked around at the PEX tubing and it looks like its Zurn PEX. From googling around, it looks like this is type B (silane manufacturing method)? Based on what you said, it sounds like it is a problem to use Uponor expansion fittings with type B? If not, then what would be the best alternative from a reliability standpoint?

Thanks again!

 

[hj]

Zurn says the Uponor fittings WILL work with their PEX and maintain a guarantee. Plumbers who use Uponor usually have "superior attitude" when it comes to crimp or cinch connections.

Uponor

 

[Jadnashua]

One of the main advantages of using pex is that it does bend, and that can minimize how many fittings you need. It sound like they treated it like copper, and used fittings everywhere copper would need them. This means more cost, more chances of failure, and more restrictions. All pex has a memory, but there are limits on that. If the manufacturer says you can use expansion fittings, they should be good. Type-A versions should all be able to use expansion fittings.

Uphonor (Wirsbo) is probably the only company that controls the whole vertical manufacturing process for their tubing...they make the chemicals, then fabricate the tubing from it. Pretty much everyone else buys the raw materials from someone, then makes the tubing from it. Uphonor, in theory anyways, has more control over their product as a result. Type-A was the first type of pex and has a few properties -B and -C don't have. They're also the oldest manufacturer of the material.

 

[Steveirvine]

HJ, great, thanks for the info. All the stuff I googled pretty much said that the Uponor fittings are type A only and didn't make any distinction about it working with Zurn type-B. Good to know. I see Zurn has their own type of expansion fitting as well.

jadnashua, yeah, I think that's exactly what he did. Just used it like copper. It is frustrating because he could have definitely eliminated several fittings due to laziness I guess. While fixing this one joint, I'm thinking about rerouting the PEX so that at least a couple of other unnecessary fittings are eliminated.

 

[Reach4]

Based on what you said, it sounds like it is a problem to use Uponor expansion fittings with type B?

The standard for expansion fittings is F1960. You cannot use F1960 fittings with types B or C. You can use Wirsbo Aquapex or other pex that conforms to the standard to be able to use F1960 with those fittings, but also with fitting made for crimp and clamp rings.

 

[Steveirvine]

The standard for expansion fittings is F1960. You cannot use F1960 fittings with types B or C. You can use Wirsbo Aquapex or other pex that conforms to the standard to be able to use F1960 with those fittings, but also with fitting made for crimp and clamp rings.

Ok, I'm missing something here. Didn't HJ say below that Zurn says you can use Uponor fittings (presumably their expansion fittings) with their PEX:

Zurn says the Uponor fittings WILL work with their PEX and maintain a guarantee. Plumbers who use Uponor usually have "superior attitude" when it comes to crimp or cinch connections.

 

[Reach4]

Ok, I'm missing something here. Didn't HJ say below that Zurn says you can use Uponor fittings (presumably their expansion fittings) with their PEX:

I think he was was saying that the F1960 Zurn fittings will work with Uponor PEX tubing. http://www.zurn.com/products/pex-cross-linked-polyethylene/plumbing/expansion/fittings

You could not use those F1960 Zurn fittings with Zurn PEX B tubing.

 

[Jadnashua]

Normally, types -B and -C won't spring back fully or could tear the bonds internally, when expanded, so expandable connections don't work reliably. Keep in mind that the seal is created by the elasticity of the tubing - anything that disrupts that in a less elastic tubing could compromise that seal. If Zurn says theirs works (I'd want to see that in writing from them) with expansion type fittings, then I think, they are the exception.

Most companies want you to use their fittings, then they know they'll work if installed properly.

 

[FullySprinklered]

Zurn says the Uponor fittings WILL work with their PEX and maintain a guarantee. Plumbers who use Uponor usually have "superior attitude" when it comes to crimp or cinch connections.

Uponor

Neat work. That yours HJ?
Mine looks like an octopus in a barbwire fence.

 

[Steveirvine]

Hello, just wanted to close the loop here. I called up Zurn and asked about using Uponor expansion with Zurn PEX and the engineer mentioned that it's supported but they will not warranty it. The PEX PDF that they have on their website also states that they will work with ASTM F1960 fittings and also states that there wouldn't be a warranty if it's a non-Zurn fitting. Finally, the print string on my Zurn PEX also has F1960 printed on it. I hadn't noticed that before!

On an another note, I was impressed with how quickly I was able to talk to a technical person at Zurn. Call was picked up in 2 min and first line of tech support passed me to the engineer within 5 min. All based in the US as well!

 

[Terry]

Neat work. That yours HJ?
Mine looks like an octopus in a barbwire fence.

I snagged that picture off the Uponor site.

 

[Jadnashua]

PEX tends to look sort of disorganized and sloppy unless you take particular care. But, it all works. You can get a sloppy rigid copper install, too. All part of attention to detail and professionalism.

 

[FullySprinklered]

My copper looks much nicer.

 

[Tim Meneely]

Catching up late to make a comment the whole way back on your original photo: I could imagine expandable foam pushing a connection apart. That stuff is inexorable.

So maybe the problem is just that one joint.

Tim

 

[Reach4]

So maybe the problem is just that one joint.

As I understand it, that one joint had a faulty plastic elbow.

 

[Will Rogers Plumbing]

Those Oetiker style clamps can be finicky if not clamped correctly. Should be an easy fix. If it is PEX B any crimp or clamp style PEX connection will work. I'd recommend using Brass fittings not the Poly if using crimp/clamp style.