Leaking copper pipe for outside wall exterior faucet

[CollinLeon]

I'm in the Houston area and the soil here has a high clay content. As such, digging it by hand is a real pain.

The house is a concrete slab on grade with brick veneer, built by Perry Homes. I noticed the edge of the slab being damp the other day where the brick ledge is located and right near an exterior faucet (hose bib). On the other side of the wall was my closet for the master bathroom and when I checked there, the carpet was damp by the wall. It is apparently a slow leak and I never noticed it, but the carpet was molded and ruined along that edge, so I just ripped out the carpet and padding from the closet. I had been putting off replacing it with slate or travertine for quite awhile and it looks like my hand has been forced.

I opened up the sheetrock in the closet to get to the back of the faucet and the copper line supplying it in the hope that the leak was above the slab. The copper pipe was completely dry, so no such luck. Apparently the copper pipe goes straight down through the 2x4 wall base plate and then through the concrete. Luckily it is not a major leak. By putting a squirrel cage fan blowing on it and cutting a 1" square out of the sheathing, I was able to get it to no longer dampen the concrete. The leaking water is now just draining to the brick ledge and out the house.

I've started digging by hand and have finally gotten to the bottom of the footer for the slab at that point. That means that I've only got a couple more feet to go in order to have room to get under the footer and start digging under the house and upwards to find the supply line for the faucet. As an old fart, this is not particularly that fun in a Texas summer, but once I started it, I figured I had to see it through...

I have a question though... When builders put this sort of copper pipe through the slab where the footer for the slab is located, how far do they usually go down before turning horizontally and going to wherever the water is sourced from? Do they come out the bottom of the footer before making the turn or do they make the turn while in the concrete?

So far, I have no idea whether the leak in the pipe is in the concrete or is in the soil. The clay is so impervious to water that I would not be surprised if the leak was in the portion of the pipe that was in the soil and was being forced up along the small gap between the pipe and the concrete.

 

[James Henry]

I would try to find out where that line originates from and cap it off. Then run a new line in the attic. That line is incased in the footing. Your call. Also look for signs of leaking around the hose bib connection.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[CollinLeon]

I would try to find out where that line originates from and cap it off. Then run a new line in the attic. That line is incased in the footing. Your call. Also look for signs of leaking around the hose bib connection.

I do not think it originates in the attic. Or, if it does, it goes to the master bath and then branches off from one of the lines there and goes under the concrete to the hose bib. If that is the case, then it would mean cutting off water to everything in the master bath (2 sinks, a Jacuzzi, shower, and toilet). Losing all of that would be kind of extreme. I don't remember there being any cold water supply lines up in the attic though. Even some of the hot water supply lines go underground.

 

[Terry]

You have moisture at the floor. What happens when you run the faucet? Often our hosebib leaks are from split copper on the faucet itself. Only leaking while in use.

If you have soft copper running downward and it's on a slab, the next connection could be far away. We don't put fittings under the slabs. Connections are made above the concrete.

 

[CollinLeon]

You have moisture at the floor. What happens when you run the faucet? Often our hosebib leaks are from split copper on the faucet itself. Only leaking while in use.

If you have soft copper running downward and it's on a slab, the next connection could be far away. We don't put fittings under the slabs. Connections are made above the concrete.

It's 1/2" copper and after I opened up the sheetrock on the back side of the hose bib, I could see everything. The hose big goes through the brick and is fed from the bottom by the 1/2" copper pipe. There are no other copper pipes coming to it or going from it. It goes straight down to the 2x4 wall base plate where a small square (maybe 1.5"x1.5" is cut out of one side of it to allow the copper to go through it and into the slab.

The water is not coming from the faucet. Although a couple of drops of water leak out around the valve handle when it is being turned on, nothing leaks when it is either fully on or fully off. The leak that I'm working on is there regardless of whether the faucet is on or off.

I'm thinking that the actual pipe developed a leak under the slab, not that there is a connection under the slab. To fix this though, I suspect that I will need to put a connection under the slab. It would be nice if I had a plumbing plan that showed where every pipe was located, but that's not exactly something you would have unless you are having the house custom built or were there to oversee everything when the builder was building it.

Breaking a hole in the concrete inside the closet would not work since the pipe goes into the footer of the slab and there's no guarantee where it goes from there. I figured the least destructive route would be to tunnel under the slab footer.

I don't like the idea of renting a mini excavator for $230 for the day when it would only take it a few minutes to dig the portion of the tunnel that is outside of the slab. I'm also not enjoying my discussions with Mr. Heatstroke while doing the digging by hand. But, I've started it, so I need to finish it, even if it kills me in the process...

 

[James Henry]

The start of that water line is usually tied in at the main shut off valve location. I would look there.

 

[WorthFlorida]

The pipe would be about one foot under the concrete. When soft copper is used and it has to be bend into a radius turn, as Terry mentioned no fittings are allowed. The problem your going to have is you'll need a bigger hole. Once you do find the pipe, if ever, you'll need to be able to get both arms and hands to the leak for a proper repair. That won't be easy.

To check that it is an actual leak, not from rain water, you'll need to go to the water meter, and like Florida, it only a few inches below grade in a box with a cover. On the meter dial there will be a little star wheel that turns with the smallest amount of water flow. If it is moving and you are absolutely sure no water is running it would not be moving. If it is all digital, in the LCD display you'll see an arrow appearing every few seconds indicating that water is flowing, or a flow rate display. Other digital meters may have a leak detection display. https://www.svud.org/resource-center/how-to-read-your-water-meter/

Another question is are there any irrigation sprinkler heads or PVC pipe near this area of the home?

What James Henry suggested is run a new pipe from the attic but first cap off this pipe where it originates. Where that would be is most likely the closest faucet. The copper feed comes out of the sleb to a tee. One end is for that faucet and the other ends goes back under the slab to feed the next fixture. This is where you need to cap it off to stop the leak and then run a new pipe (CPVC to make it easy) up the wall into the attic, if possible.

You are right that when the ground is saturated or impervious to drainage, the water pressure will force the water to run along the outside of the pipe and follow the path of least resistance. As it sounds, at least for digging, etc. this is a big tasks and may be worth to hire a leak detection company to look at it. They can trace it to the origin of the leak and that can save a ton of work. If your leak is 3 feet from the footing, you'll need to dig a tunnel. With a leak detection company you'll be able to determine the best action to take and when they trace where the source of the water is for this spigot, they should be able to cap it off and buy you some time on how you want to go about fixing it. If it is under the bedroom floor it may be easier to cut a hole into the concrete right in the bedroom since you'll be redoing the floor anyway.

Since you do not have to worry about freezing, a PVC pipe can be buried along the foundation from another outside spigot to this location of the leak if you really need it there.

 

[CollinLeon]

The pipe would be about one foot under the concrete. When soft copper is used and it has to be bend into a radius turn, as Terry mentioned no fittings are allowed. The problem your going to have is you'll need a bigger hole. Once you do find the pipe, if ever, you'll need to be able to get both arms and hands to the leak for a proper repair. That won't be easy.

To check that it is an actual leak, not from rain water, you'll need to go to the water meter, and like Florida, it only a few inches below grade in a box with a cover. On the meter dial there will be a little star wheel that turns with the smallest amount of water flow. If it is moving and you are absolutely sure no water is running it would not be moving. If it is all digital, in the LCD display you'll see an arrow appearing every few seconds indicating that water is flowing, or a flow rate display. Other digital meters may have a leak detection display. https://www.svud.org/resource-center/how-to-read-your-water-meter/

Another question is are there any irrigation sprinkler heads or PVC pipe near this area of the home?

What James Henry suggested is run a new pipe from the attic but first cap off this pipe where it originates. Where that would be is most likely the closest faucet. The copper feed comes out of the sleb to a tee. One end is for that faucet and the other ends goes back under the slab to feed the next fixture. This is where you need to cap it off to stop the leak and then run a new pipe (CPVC to make it easy) up the wall into the attic, if possible.

You are right that when the ground is saturated or impervious to drainage, the water pressure will force the water to run along the outside of the pipe and follow the path of least resistance. As it sounds, at least for digging, etc. this is a big tasks and may be worth to hire a leak detection company to look at it. They can trace it to the origin of the leak and that can save a ton of work. If your leak is 3 feet from the footing, you'll need to dig a tunnel. With a leak detection company you'll be able to determine the best action to take and when they trace where the source of the water is for this spigot, they should be able to cap it off and buy you some time on how you want to go about fixing it. If it is under the bedroom floor it may be easier to cut a hole into the concrete right in the bedroom since you'll be redoing the floor anyway.

Since you do not have to worry about freezing, a PVC pipe can be buried along the foundation from another outside spigot to this location of the leak if you really need it there.

I am very positive that it is not from rain or my irrigation system. We have not had rain in awhile and my irrigation system has been off because of a leak on the manifold that I've been procrastinating fixing. This is on the back wall of the house, so there's a lot of places where lines could be run through the yard or under the slab to get the water here. I figure the footer on the slab is probably around 12" wide at the bottom and then probably slopes up at around a 60 degree angle. That could make for a lot of concrete that the copper pipe goes through before it finally comes out and gets into the dirt under the slab where I might have access to it. I'm thinking that if I find the leak and it is in the dirt under the slab, then I'll just cut out the leak and install a union (or maybe a short piece of pipe and 2 unions if necessary). If the leak is in the concrete, then I'll cap it off initially and see if it is possible to pull out the existing pipe through the concrete and route another piece there in it's place. If it was 3/4" copper, then there might be an option of using 1/2" PEX routed inside the existing copper, but that is not the case. Making a new slightly larger hole through the concrete in the same place so that I could more easily run the pipe is not going to be fun if there is a lot of concrete that I'm going to have to go through. It's one thing to have to make a hole in the middle of a slab where the concrete is likely only 4-6" thick and the copper goes straight though. It's entirely different if the copper is in the slab footer and goes through 2 ft of concrete while bent at large radius curve.

I'm not sure where all the sprinkler lines are around this part of the house, so I didn't want to just get an excavator and start wildly digging. The internet line is probably somewhere around there and the same goes for the underground power line, but assuming they go in a relatively straight line from their source to destination, I'm probably safe from hitting either of them.

 

[CollinLeon]

On one wall of this closet that is perpendicular to the exterior wall where the hose bib is located, there is a jacuzzi on the other side of it. There is a trimmed access panel there that has a door over it. When I open the door, there is just sheetrock, so apparently it has never been accessed before. I removed the sheetrock so that I could look on the other side. That is also the end of the jacuzzi with the water supply and drain line. It appears that the jacuzzi is sitting on dirt and there is no slab underneath it. It's kind of granular dirt that looks like a course brown sand. Kind of like what you see in fire ant beds around here, come to think about it. I moved my hand through it and I *think* I can feel some plastic underneath it instead of concrete. Is it standard practice to put tubs on dirt instead of concrete? If so, then it sounds like I probably shouldn't dig under that part...

The dirt is very dry there and so are the hot and cold water supply lines. It's *possible* that the hose bib's supply line comes off of this, but if so, it's not leaking anywhere close enough to it to cause the dirt to be wet.

The shutoff valve for the jacuzzi hot water line is connected to a T-fitting with one leg of the T going into the slab and the other leg of the T going up the wall. Since the hot water tank is in the attic, I suspect that the hot water comes from there , then down the wall, then goes underground to the sinks and showers. Or maybe it is just a capped piece of pipe acting to reduce water hammer. Wouldn't know without tearing the wall completely apart or climbing up in a very narrow space full of fiberglass in a 140 degree attic. I would prefer to try to avoid that if at all possible.

The shutoff valve for the jacuzzi cold water line is connected to an elbow fitting and there is a copper line attached to it going through the slab.

I hate water lines going through the attic because if you have a pipe burst during a cold winter (every 30 years or so around here), then you get massive ceiling damage and water damage in the house. On the other hand, putting the water lines below the slab make it difficult to repair and it can get quite expensive if you have to hire someone to tunnel well towards the center of your slab to fix it. I think the best option would be to have the house built well above the ground so that you could park underneath it and all the pipes are exposed so that you can see if anything is leaking. That way, any leaks would not damage anything.