Leaking commode, cast iron flange

[Hcliffe]

Recently purchased a condo, moved in yesterday. Today while there I felt a drip on my head from the ceiling. The upstairs bathroom is right above that. Went up there nothing visible. Turned off water to the toilet, cut into the drywall ceiling. Water dripping from cast iron pipe at the floor. Pulled toilet and found 2 wax rings, both with horns stacked on top of each other. Cleaned most off and could tell the cast iron flange is missing a ridge on one side. But still, with all that wax, not sure how it leaked. Found a waxless Fernco FCS-4, thought maybe that would work as it goes further down into the pipe. installed toilet, poured a few buckets in to the bowl. No leak. REinstalled supply lines, filled tank. About 10 minutes later, it started dripping again from below the floor. The bolts seem to be fine, they tighten up with no problem so that area of the flange seems ok. The toilet didn't rock before or now, so not breaking the seal I guess.

Thoughts on why this is leaking despite 2 wax rings, then a waxless ring that goes down into the pipe? Thoughts on how to fix it? any help is much appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

I suggest getting a helper. Play a garden hose into the open closet flange while somebody watches for drips. Does the closet flange accept 30 minutes of full blast (about 5 gpm maybe) from the hose without backing up getting drips below?

I am guessing there will be a backup or leak (not counting overflowing the open flange as a leak-- that would be a backup).

 

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[WorthFlorida]

2 wax rings indicate the flange is too far down from the floor level but two wax rings should do the trick. When you removed the original bowl, were both rings well spread out? Did you look for any cracks in the bowl? CI pipe can crack and could be difficult to see. I personally do not like waxless rings.
I would use two wax rings with one that has a thicker wax. Try the thicker wax ring alone, place it on the bowl then on to the flange. You should be able to feel the wax compress. If not lift the bowl and if the ring is barely compressed, use a second standard size wax ring without a flange.

Fluidmaster Extra Thick Reinforced Wax Toilet Bowl Gasket with Flange and Bolts 7514

The Fluidmaster 7514 Extra Thick Reinforced Wax Toilet Bowl Gasket with Flange and Bolts, is a superior solution for securing and sealing your toilet to floor. This complete wax ring kit includes reinforced

www.homedepot.com

Everbilt Standard Toilet Wax Ring 7004 - The Home Depot

Oatey - Bol-Wax Gasket - Designed to fit all floor toilet bowls, this gasket is a full size wax gasket toilet bowl ring. Includes installation instructions. - THD SKU# 254758

www.homedepot.com

 

[Hcliffe]

I suggest getting a helper. Play a garden hose into the open closet flange while somebody watches for drips. Does the closet flange accept 30 minutes of full blast (about 5 gpm maybe) from the hose without backing up getting drips below?

I am guessing there will be a backup or leak (not counting overflowing the open flange as a leak-- that would be a backup).

Not sure I can get a garden hose up there but understand your point. However this thing is leaking with the toilet just sitting with water in the tank. And when I pulled the toilet there was no visible blockage or backup of water in sight.

 

[Hcliffe]

2 wax rings indicate the flange is too far down from the floor level but two wax rings should do the trick. When you removed the original bowl, were both rings well spread out? Did you look for any cracks in the bowl? CI pipe can crack and could be difficult to see. I personally do not like waxless rings.
I would use two wax rings with one that has a thicker wax. Try the thicker wax ring alone, place it on the bowl then on to the flange. You should be able to feel the wax compress. If not lift the bowl and if the ring is barely compressed, use a second standard size wax ring without a flange.

Fluidmaster Extra Thick Reinforced Wax Toilet Bowl Gasket with Flange and Bolts 7514

The Fluidmaster 7514 Extra Thick Reinforced Wax Toilet Bowl Gasket with Flange and Bolts, is a superior solution for securing and sealing your toilet to floor. This complete wax ring kit includes reinforced

www.homedepot.com

Everbilt Standard Toilet Wax Ring 7004 - The Home Depot

Oatey - Bol-Wax Gasket - Designed to fit all floor toilet bowls, this gasket is a full size wax gasket toilet bowl ring. Includes installation instructions. - THD SKU# 254758

www.homedepot.com

I'm sure the flange is too far down. It's and old condo and a ceramic tile floor has been installed, so I'm sure the floor is higher now. Yes, both rings were spread out. Haven't looked for cracks in the bowl, I need to do that. I can try 2 wax rings but I'm wondering if the CI pipe is cracked or corroded just below the flange.

 

[Hcliffe]

Would a "repair flange" possibly do the trick? It would go down inside the CI pipe, then expand, correct? How much of the old CI flange would I need to remove first, given the old flange is too low to start with?

 

[Reach4]

Not sure I can get a garden hose up there but understand your point. However this thing is leaking with the toilet just sitting with water in the tank. And when I pulled the toilet there was no visible blockage or backup of water in sight.

Based on that symptom, it could be that the toilet is leaking from the tank but not into the bowl. Water is traveling down to the floor thru a path that is not the toilet trapway.

In that case a new toilet fixes it. That would be good news because most new toilets flush better than old toilets, despite their using less water.

Now if that theory does not match the observed facts in some way, note that a partial clog would have emptied by the time you got the toilet removed.

 

[Hcliffe]

Based on that symptom, it could be that the toilet is leaking from the tank but not into the bowl. Water is traveling down to the floor thru a path that is not the toilet trapway.

In that case a new toilet fixes it. That would be good news because most new toilets flush better than old toilets, despite their using less water.

Now if that theory does not match the observed facts in some way, note that a partial clog would have emptied by the time you got the toilet removed.

Interesting thought, because about a week ago, it WAS leaking from the tank. I saw it and replaced the bolt washers inside and under the tank, and also the large washer between the tank and the bowl. I've been watching it closely and thought it was fixed. It its not fixed now, I can't imagine how it would be leaking now with new washers and gaskets and me not seeing it. I did look very closely all around it once there was dripping thru the ceiling below.

 

[Reach4]

Not sure I can get a garden hose up there but understand your point. However this thing is leaking with the toilet just sitting with water in the tank. And when I pulled the toilet there was no visible blockage or backup of water in sight.

You can put those things in series to reach farther. Do be careful of leaks between hoses. Sometimes it is good to replace hose washers.

Would a "repair flange" possibly do the trick? It would go down inside the CI pipe, then expand, correct? How much of the old CI flange would I need to remove first, given the old flange is too low to start with?

Repair rings are about holding the toilet down securely. I don't know what you mean by repair flange. There are lead things that fit inside lead piping. Would that be it?

The Danco Hydroseat can be good. That allows the wax to make good contact without any potential for rocking hurting the wax seal. I understand you said there was no rocking, but you did not mention shims. So I suspect there could be rocking that you did not detect after you have dropped the toilet on the wax and tightened the toilet.

A toilet over a good flange with NO wax will not necessarily leak water. There is a horn at the bottom of the toilet that sits over a bigger hole in the flange. So let me recap what I think are possibilities:

1. The piping below the top of the flange leaks.
2. The toilet leaks water that does not go through the regular exit (horn)
3. The wax seal leaks. This could be combined with a slow drainage that holds water against the wax.

The hose test was aimed at #1 as well as the partially clogged pipe idea.

Testing for #2, how about turning off the water at the wall stop valve, and don't flush. Carefully mark the height of the water in the tank. Does the water level fall over several hours? Is there any leakage observed from below?

 

[Hcliffe]

You can put those things in series to reach farther. Do be careful of leaks between hoses. Sometimes it is good to replace hose washers.


Repair rings are about holding the toilet down securely. I don't know what you mean by repair flange. There are lead things that fit inside lead piping. Would that be it?

The Danco Hydroseat can be good. That allows the wax to make good contact without any potential for rocking hurting the wax seal. I understand you said there was no rocking, but you did not mention shims. So I suspect there could be rocking that you did not detect after you have dropped the toilet on the wax and tightened the toilet.

A toilet over a good flange with NO wax will not necessarily leak water. There is a horn at the bottom of the toilet that sits over a bigger hole in the flange. So let me recap what I think are possibilities:

1. The piping below the top of the flange leaks.
2. The toilet leaks water that does not go through the regular exit (horn)
3. The wax seal leaks. This could be combined with a slow drainage that holds water against the wax.

The hose test was aimed at #1 as well as the partially clogged pipe idea.

Testing for #2, how about turning off the water at the wall stop valve, and don't flush. Carefully mark the height of the water in the tank. Does the water level fall over several hours? Is there any leakage observed from below?

Great input, thanks for taking the time to post.

I probably used the wrong terminology; instead of flare repair kit, I was thinking of trying this item:

OATEY4 in. PVC Twist-N-Set Open Toilet Flange​

Also, I didn't see any shims.
Good list of possibilities!
For #1, the Oatey item above should fix that as it goes into the drain pipe pretty far and seals against the wall.
For #2, I need to thoroughly inspect the toilet for cracks.
For #3, I will use a new wax ring and be careful how we set it.

For your idea of testing #2, good thought, but my wall stop valve does not stop the water 100%. Yet another problem.....but, I haven't heard the water come on into the tank like you would if you have a leak from the flapper. Therefore, no idea where/how water is still dripping unless it was built up from previous flushes.

Thoughts on the above?

 

[Reach4]

I was thinking of trying this item:

OATEY4 in. PVC Twist-N-Set Open Toilet Flange​

That requires pretty much of a clean 4-inch ID pipe to meet where the black gasket is. So that is unlikely to be useful to you. If you do have such a pipe to fit into, you could also consider the Sioux Chief 887-GPM, which has a stainless steel ring.

You might post a photo of what the existing flange looks like. Do look into the Danco Hydroseat. The legs go onto the finished floor, and you screw the legs down with screws either on the ends of the legs or with screws through the ring closer to the center.

Also, if you need a plunger from time to time with that toilet, a new one would probably not need a plunger, or maybe 0.3 times per person-year.

 

[Hcliffe]

Thanks for all your help everyone.

The culprit was #2 above, a small, seeping leak from the tank that was so small I didn't see it, ran down along the bowl and under the base, never leaving the floor wet. I tried new washers in the tank, new bolts, new large gasket. Still leaked. Put bolt, then rubber washer, then tank bottom, then another rubber washer, then metal washer, then nut, tightened that, then thru the tank, then washer then nut. All tight, still leaked. Checked gasket again, all good, still leaked. Tightened supply line at bottom of tank, still leaked. Threw the hole toilet and supply line in the trash, installed new, problem solved. Geeze.