Kinetico System and Coliform

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dlm

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Hi,
I have a problem and need some advice. Three years ago I installed a Kinetico softner and RO system in my house. I recently sold the house and during the home inspection the water sample came back with coliform. I chlorinated the well, flushed the chlorine through the entire house and treatment system and tested a week later and both samples were both absent of coliform.
Just prior to the closing I re-tested and the kitchen facet came up with coliform. I chlorinated the well and house once again. To go through with the sale, we put money in escrow so that the new owner could use it to fix the problem if it still existed 3 months after the sale. The recent samples came back with colifrom present in the kitchen faucet, the RO faucet and absent from the well tank. So we know the well isn’t the problem and there must be bacteria in the treatment system. The new owner had the dealer that installed the system come out twice to chlorinate the filter tanks and piping which did not remove coliform.
Now they want to install a UV system after the filter which doesn’t make sense to me since it will not get rid of the source. We asked them if they thought the repacking the filter beds would work and they said that wouldn’t be necessary.
Has anyone heard of this before? Any help would be appreciated. Sorry for the long message.
Thanks
DLM
 

Sammyhydro11

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They are going to put in a UV unit because they cant disinfect the treatment system? I would call a diferent treatment company. The only way that i can see re-chlorinating the plumbing is by chlorinating the well first to get the solution into the plumbing. Either that or maybe by pumping a bleach solution into the plumbing from the basement. How did they disinfect the plumbing and the treatment system the 2 times they came out?

Sammy
 

Gary Slusser

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Not being able to sanitize two filters and resin beds and the control and bypass valves and then the salt tank, is not hard to understand. Chlorine has been used at least 4-5 times in a short time frame and Coliform is still present.

Chlorine does not do well against slime, and when attacked, many types of bacteria produce slime as a defense. It would require scrubbing the entire wet surfaces inside all the equipment to remove it but... The Coliform is coming from somewhere, maybe the drain line connection to a drain, sump pump hole or floor drain. Maybe the RO drain line too, and contamination is migrating to the kitchen faucet etc..Also, Coliform comes and goes, so it may have been in the well water a few days prior to the sampling and gone when sampled.

I would go with the UV light, a class A, with intensity monitor. Depending on the gpm rating/size, I have them for a delivered price of less than $950.00 with a prefilter housing and cartridge. That is for a 25 gpm and the house may not require but half that. Installation is simple plumbing and might take 2-2.5 hrs.
 

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You know i could see if the well had a an issue where coliform kept showing up, but knowing where the source is and not resolving it there, is something maybe i cant understand. Eventually the resin will be no good because of the bacteria coating the beads. At that point the alternative is a new softener and now you have a useless UV unit that you spent almost 1000.00 dollars on. If it sometimes takes 4 or 5 times to disinfect a water softener, then maybe they have 3 more shots at it before its time to give up. If they are unsuccessful at that point, then put that 1000.00 dollars toward a new softener and forget about it.

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dlm

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Thanks for your help. From talking with the new owner he said they circulated chlorine throught the system and pipes to the sink. He said it didn't look like they used a lot of chlorine. The few times I chlorinated I used 4 gallons for the 400ft well.
Do you think it would be best for them to remove the resin and clean the tanks and try again or cut my losses and put in the UV?
 

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Did they disinfect the hot and cold pipes? How do they know that the UV is going to work if they cant determine where the coliform is coming from? What if its in the plumbing? The UV will only treat the water discharging from the softener. How long did they let the bleach sit in the system for? Did they remove the filters and membrane before chlorinating the unit? If they cant disinfect that softener,and if thats where the bacteria is coming from, i would have them replace it. IMO that bacteria will create problems with that softeners ability to treat the water.


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dlm

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I am not sure they did all the piping and I think they only allowed 4 hours of contact time. When I chlorinated, I flushed the softener, both the hot and cold pipes from every faucet tub/shower and toilet and completely drained the hot water tank to make sure it would not be a problem. Each time the chlorine sat for a minimum of 36 hours.
That’s why I think the bacteria could be in a slime build up in the system since after I chlorinated it would kill the bacteria on the surface of the slime and not show up when I resampled within a week. Then the coliform would eventually repopulate over time.
 

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If they cant get rid of the bacteria in the softener, its only going to get worse. They should have taken the membrane and the cartridges out of the RO, disinfected the RO canisters,the tank,and ran water from the RO faucet until they smelled the bleach. The hot water tank should have been filled with the bleach solution too,and all faucets ran,hot and cold, until you are able to smell bleach. All toilets flushed too.I say the minimum contact time should be 12 to 24HRS and then flush the system until there is no more bleach odor. Regardless as to what you do the plumbing is going to have to be disinfected again. I would take the softener out of service,disinfect the plumbing and RO again and take a sample. If it comes back negative, either replace the softener, or have them take it to their shop and clean it. Installing a UV unit will not get rid of the problem.

Sammy
 

Gary Slusser

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Sam, I don't know how much experience you have with bacteria remediation but in another life I was approved by the VA/FHA to collect water samples, do the testing and shock wells, retest and if needed sell and install the equipment, then retest before they would approve a mortgage.

I have sold and serviced hundreds of UV lights over the last 21 years and they work every time. Plus I've lived with one myself. I've used them in commercial establishments that were under state required quarterly water testing.

Resin or a softener is not harmed by Coliform bacteria. Resin or a softener is easily sanitized, carbon can not be sanitized. When I said softener, I should have said the filter parts of the twin tank Kinetico combination filter/softener present in this case. Sorry.

If the well is a rock bore well, it's usually impossible to say where the contamination comes from. At least in hilly terrain like in PA where I was.

Shocking a well rarely if ever gets rid of a Coliform bacteria problem permanently.
 

Sammyhydro11

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Gary,
i have never had a problem getting rid of bacteria in a softener and thats why i am a little confused about why these people are having issues. I have always chlorinated the well first and then brought the chlorinated water up into the softener and the rest of the plumbing. It sounds to me like they only have a softener and the RO so if sanitizing the softening resin isn't difficult then maybe these Kinetico techs dont know what they are doing. I dont like seeing people waste money when there is a simple resolution.

Sammy
 

Cass

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While you guys are the pros here, I would think a UV system and regular testing of the water B 4 the UV system on a regular basis would be prudent.

The UV would always offer protection and the testing would insure they knew what was going on at regular intervals...just my $.02.

I had a customer years back that had the same problem and it was their septic system slowly but continually poisoning the well. They had to abandon the well and connect to the county water system.
 

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Sammy, the unit isn't just a softener, it has two tanks with carbon in them. And if you shock a well and run the chlorinated dirty water through the softener, you are ruining resin. You should by pass the softener and then run chlorine to all fixtures and then sanitize the softener separately.

Cass, possibly you meant the test should be after the UV. It should be. That's how you tell if the light is doing the job, and you already know the light was installed because there was Coliform found in the raw water before the light. A UV light is always last inline before any fixture and after any other treatment equipment.
 

Sammyhydro11

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Gary,
i agree that running chlorinated water through a softener over a period of time will degrade the resin but what would be the difference of if you did the softener seperate from the plumbing?Is it the concentration? You are still running chlorinated water through the resin regardless. I dont know where they posted that they have another tank with carbon.If there is carbon,do a rebed and disinfect the tank. I can be wrong but i always thought that any kind of bacteria can create a film around the resin beads and prevent the ion exchange process. They tested zero coliform at the well tank and a positive count at the kitchen faucet and RO. The bacteria is somewhere between the discharge of the well tank and the faucets. I say get rid of the bacteria and do periodoc testing to see if it comes back.

Sammy
 

Gary Slusser

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He called me, his Kinetico doesn't have the pair of stacked tanks, it's just a softener. He has prefilters but no carbon.

Shocking a well is done with much stronger chlorine than you use sanitizing a softener and it is in the resin bed for much longer than when sanitizing the softener. And any chlorine damages resins.
 

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Using more bleach, as is done to shock a well, makes a stronger chlorine solution than when you use less than a 1/4 cup of bleach in a few gallons of water that is then is further diluted by the slow rinse water flow during brining, to sanitize a softener. And you sanitize by doing a manual regeneration that only allows the chlorine in the resin bed for less than an hour in most softeners.
 
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