Keep losing prime or pressure

[Reach4]

so it turns out it’s not a check valve at all. It’s just a small piece of black pvc pipe.
I have no idea why it was there. This system was all out of sorts when I started and it just keeps getting worse
Anyways I removed it and put a solid piece of tubing there.
So I guess I’m back to square one. Finding the leak…

Here is the thought: if there is a small water leak, the pressure should slowly drop. If it drops enough, the pump should start.

If there is no check valve, other than the one in the foot valve, and you still lose prime on occasion, consider reducing the air precharge a bit -- to maybe 25 psi if the current air precharge is higher.

How much altitude difference is there between the surface of the lake and the top of the pump?

 

[Chucky_ott]

I don't think you ever answered the question on whether your system maintains pressure when the pump is off and there is no call for water. And if so, does it maintain pressure without dropping. That would tell us if there's a leak in the system.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

I did try doing a pressure test at the beginning, but I will do it again as that’s the best option I see right now.

And I believe there is about 25-35 feet of drop but the line we have going out to the lake is very long. 150+ feet. I’m just using the pump that was already here. Would a week pump cause this issue…

I’ll add this as well. When I lose prime I go out to the pump house and open the prime cap and lots of pressurized air comes out from the pressure tank.
I will also get the psi of the tank when empty and full. When I pressure test…

 

[Reach4]

If 35 feet of drop at sea level, that would be a strong problem, and it is probably not that much drop.

If 32 feet at sea level, that would be a problem some of the time, depending on atmospheric pressure. Moving the pump and suction lines to the floor, off of that table, might make you have a problem every ~4 weeks instead of ~2 weeks.

But you are not at sea level:
Elevation: 2,297′

So the amount of altitude that you can lift goes down even more, because atmospheric pressure is normally reported as what it would measure at sea level, and you are not near sea level. Lake level also plays a factor.

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

If 35 feet of drop at sea level, that would be a strong problem, and it is probably not that much drop.

If 32 feet at sea level, that would be a problem some of the time, depending on atmospheric pressure. Moving the pump and suction lines to the floor, off of that table, might make you have a problem every ~4 weeks instead of ~2 weeks.

But you are not at sea level:
Elevation: 2,297′

So the amount of altitude that you can lift goes down even more, because atmospheric pressure is normally reported as what it would measure at sea level, and you are not near sea level. Lake level also plays a factor.

If 35 feet of drop at sea level, that would be a strong problem, and it is probably not that much drop.

If 32 feet at sea level, that would be a problem some of the time, depending on atmospheric pressure. Moving the pump and suction lines to the floor, off of that table, might make you have a problem every ~4 weeks instead of ~2 weeks.

But you are not at sea level:
Elevation: 2,297′

So the amount of altitude that you can lift goes down even more, because atmospheric pressure is normally reported as what it would measure at sea level, and you are not near sea level. Lake level also plays a factor.

So that’s very good to know.
So I’m assuming getting a stronger pump would help with my situation a lot?

 

[Reach4]

So that’s very good to know.
So I’m assuming getting a stronger pump would help with my situation a lot?

No, a suction pump cannot lift enough if the altitude change is what you suspect.

If this is a public lake, you can probably not put a submersible pump into the lake, but that would sure make pumping easier.

 

[Bannerman]

there is about 25-35 feet of drop

The inlet screen/foot valve could be 100' below the pump, but if the top of the water is less than 20' below the pump inlet, then the pump will only need to draw the water up the difference in height from the top of the water to the pump inlet.

Although the maximum distance possible to draw water vertically is 33.9' under perfect vacuum @ sea level, no shallow well jet pump is capable of perfect vacuum, and so will have a typical max of 25' @ sea level.

Because the pump only creates a vacuum within the suction line, atmospheric pressure will continually push water into the line to fill the void created by the vacuum. Because atmospheric pressure will determine the water lift height, the 25' maximum distance is based at sea level, so as elevation increases above sea level, atmospheric pressure will decrease, as will the maximum draw lift height possible.

As the vertical draw distance will be decreased by about 2' for every 1000' rise in elevation above sea level, with Frt. St. James, BC, located at an elevation of 700 metres (~2296 ft), the vertical difference in height between the water in the lake to the pump inlet will need to be ~20' or less.

 

[Reach4]

If you want to be able to monitor conditions, consider a combination pressure and vacuum gauge on the suction line.

If you don't draw much of a vacuum, it is a priming problem. If you draw a good vacuum, but the water will not lift, I expect you are lifting too high.

Example: Winters PCT338 or PCT330. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Winters...2-PCT-Contractor-Pressure-Gauge-30Hg-0-60-PSI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312983022324 has the correct picture.

Note that when you add a gauge or anything to a suction line, that is another place for a potential vacuum leak.

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

thanks guys this is all very helpful information. I will need to do a lot more problem solving to get this sorted out.

We use to have a submersible pump quite some time ago. I technically live on reserve land so I don’t believe it would be an issue.
The real issue I see with a submersible pump is some years this lake freezes all the way to the ground and wouldn’t that cause some major issue with a submersible???

And for the pressure/vacuum gauge where would I attach this to the line. At the top by the pump?

I’ve been looking at the pump on Amazon it’s a convertible shallow/deep water pump.
It says it can do in between 0-90 feet I’ll add the link.

https://www.amazon.ca/Red-Lion-PW-CJ75-Pumps-Convertilble/dp/B06XD2BL6M?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB

 

[Bannerman]

'this lake freezes all the way to the ground and wouldn’t that cause some major issue with a submersible???

Do you mean the top of the lake freezes to the shore, or, freezes all the way down to the bottom of that section of the lake? In the prior case, how is the suction line currently routed, and if the later, how is water obtained during the winter?

it’s a convertible shallow/deep water pump

When the distance between the water and pump inlet exceeds the vertical distance previously specified, then the pump would need to be configured as a deep well pump. This is achieved by removing the injector assembly from the pump, to allow 2 pipes to be installed. The 2 pipes would run the distance between the pump and the Injector assembly, which would be located within 20' of the water location.

The 2nd smaller diameter pipe is utilized to pump water down to the injector, so the pressurized water passing through the injector assembly will draw in additional water from the water source, and will propel the flow upward within the suction line, thereby permitting water to be pumped vertically from a greater distance before the jet pump.

Image below, shows a deep well configuration within a well casing.

 

[Reach4]

We use to have a submersible pump quite some time ago. I technically live on reserve land so I don’t believe it would be an issue.
The real issue I see with a submersible pump is some years this lake freezes all the way to the ground and wouldn’t that cause some major issue with a submersible???

It is possible to seasonally remove the pump. If this is year round, you would want the pump and piping deep enough to not get frozen.

And for the pressure/vacuum gauge where would I attach this to the line. At the top by the pump?

Near the top by the pump was what I was picturing. It could be either side of that red-handled valve.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/f...k-watering/590307-1_winter_considerations.pdf seems to suggest your frost penetration depth might be 100 inches. Wow.

 

[LLigetfa]

The real issue I see with a submersible pump is some years this lake freezes all the way to the ground and wouldn’t that cause some major issue with a submersible???

If there is deep enough sand on the beach, possibly you could dig a shallow well or sink a casing with a pitless adapter and bury the line below the frost. If along the path above the lake water level, bedrock prevents burial deep enough, drain-back systems are often deployed to prevent the water in the line from freezing. Of course, drain-back systems will only drain down to the lake's water level so the section of pipe that is below the water level must be protected from freezing. Heat trace cables are sometimes deployed there.

Even the best planned mitigation can still result in the line freezing so the choice of plastic pipe needs to consider that possibility. PEX A is more tolerant of freeze expansion than BEX B or other poly pipe. Even with a jet pump installed above the water level, if the suction pipe is prone to freeze, that freezing can split the pipe which may be your problem now.

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

Do you mean the top of the lake freezes to the shore, or, freezes all the way down to the bottom of that section of the lake? In the prior case, how is the suction line currently routed, and if the later, how is water obtained during the winter?


When the distance between the water and pump inlet exceeds the vertical distance previously specified, then the pump would need to be configured as a deep well pump. This is achieved by removing the injector assembly from the pump, to allow 2 pipes to be installed. The 2 pipes would run the distance between the pump and the Injector assembly, which would be located within 20' of the water location.

The 2nd smaller diameter pipe is utilized to pump water down to the injector, so the pressurized water passing through the injector assembly will draw in additional water from the water source, and will propel the flow upward within the suction line, thereby permitting water to be pumped vertically from a greater distance before the jet pump.

Image below, shows a deep well configuration within a well casing.

It depends on the year and how high the water gets. But yes some years the lake freezes from the top of the lake to the bottom where our line runs. During that time we run a gas pump and fill a storage tanks under the house from a deeper part of the lake. It’s a lot of work
And ok so a convertible pump seems like more trouble than it’s worth at the moment.

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

It is possible to seasonally remove the pump. If this is year round, you would want the pump and piping deep enough to not get frozen.


Near the top by the pump was what I was picturing. It could be either side of that red-handled valve.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/f...k-watering/590307-1_winter_considerations.pdf seems to suggest your frost penetration depth might be 100 inches. Wow.

It would be very hard for use dip deep enough and long enough to make it worth while. It would be easy to move the pump house closer to the water.

And perfect I will look into getting a gauge so I can monitor everything closely.

And yea I’m fighting with that deep freeze plus I don’t think I’m mentioned this before. I live on a small island here with a walking bridge to get across the water. So getting any kind of well digging or trench dipping equipment is close if not impossible

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

If there is deep enough sand on the beach, possibly you could dig a shallow well or sink a casing with a pitless adapter and bury the line below the frost. If along the path above the lake water level, bedrock prevents burial deep enough, drain-back systems are often deployed to prevent the water in the line from freezing. Of course, drain-back systems will only drain down to the lake's water level so the section of pipe that is below the water level must be protected from freezing. Heat trace cables are sometimes deployed there.

Even the best planned mitigation can still result in the line freezing so the choice of plastic pipe needs to consider that possibility. PEX A is more tolerant of freeze expansion than BEX B or other poly pipe. Even with a jet pump installed above the water level, if the suction pipe is prone to freeze, that freezing can split the pipe which may be your problem now.

All the beach area is covered in clay and rock. It would be very hard to dig or bury anything. We currently run heat lines in the line we have now. Even with the heat lines we get freezing depending on the year and water level.
But I will look into the drain back system you mentioned

 

[LLigetfa]

Even with the heat lines we get freezing depending on the year and water level.

Freezing can split poly pipe. Use PEX A if there is a risk of freezing.

I will look into the drain back system you mentioned

Drain back systems don't work with jet pumps. They only work with submersible pumps.

 

[Dylanlakepump35]

Freezing can split poly pipe. Use PEX A if there is a risk of freezing.

Drain back systems don't work with jet pumps. They only work with submersible pumps.

That’s good information to have. changing out of pipe is probably something we’ll do in the future. Does pex a come in 1 1/4 I’ve only ever seen it used indoor.