Katalox, pH Spike, Hardness Spike - Please Advise

[John K]

That is BS IMO

From my conversations with a couple designers, they do reduce BW flow rate when using a Vortech tank. A tech rep at Enpress that makes Vortech tanks told me their testing indicated more than 30% reduction, that 30% was conservative.

http://www.enpress.com/site/products/vortech-and-mid-vortech/

I'm a layman trying to make sense of this. I suspect some reduction is in order with the Vortech tank, but even with zero adjustment, my bed expansion would be over 30%, which seems to be the minimum recommended. Any help from the Vortech is to the good, and bed expansion was probably somewhere between 30-40%.

So for my purposes, I don't think my problems with Katalox Light were due to inadequate backwash flow rate.

 

[Reach4]

So for my purposes, I don't think my problems with Katalox Light were due to inadequate backwash flow rate.

Maybe not. 10 gpm in a 13 inch tank would be like 5.917 gpm in a 10 inch tank.

I wonder if a chlorine draw from a solution tank during regen would be good with KL with some waters. My Centaur Carbon H2S+iron filter does that every 3 days. I fill the solution tank every 33 days. I am not sure why it works, but it is doing nicely for me. We know that water varies, and my raw water iron is less than yours.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John K]

a chlorine draw from a solution tank during regen

Sounds promising.

For my house (not the rental), the mixed media of Birm with Centaur Carbon is working great so far, although I spoke with a tech at Clack that makes Birm, and he said that even with air injection and CC in the tank, with high pH water, the sulfur dioxide would probably cause premature failure of the Birm. Sigh. I might have been better off using only Centaur Carbon.

 

[ditttohead]

Answering the question, "was the backwash flow rate adequate during the Katalox phase", I'm satisfied that 10 gpm was more than enough.

For a 13" tank, the Watch-Water chart calls for 10.5 gpm. My Vortech tank instructs reducing the specified gpm by "at least 30%", which in this case would mean minimum BW rate of 7.5 gpm.

Using temperature-adjusted values, 10 gfm actual equates to 14 gfm Vortech-adjusted, which produces 40% bed expansion.

Thanks again to Reach4 for helping with this.

We are a large KL distributor, we usually recommend that the backwash rate be slightly over the manufacturers recommended amount for this media. This is just from extensive field experience and after selling many container loads of the media over the years. KL loves to backwash. As to the vortech tanks... we sell a lot of them... the directed backwash flow of the vortech plate does help with backwash... 30%... when it comes to these heavier medias we still recommend leaning on the high side of backwashing. KL will usually stop raising the pH but in some water conditions it can take much longer than others. In my house I had the pH raise last only a couple weeks of normal use. In some other locations it can take a couple months. There is a lot going on with water chemistry that even the guys in this industry with 3 PHD's cant explain. Hope this helps explain a little bit. And Birm with H2S, definite no no. KL with chlorine regen, excellent! Be aware that many newer valves have this function disabled so it takes a little trickery to get it to work sometimes.

 

[John K]

Dittohead, thanks the overview - I've been reading back threads, and the experience you have and the help you give here is really valuable.

After posting my stuff, I saw on an older thread that you were shooting for a backwash rate for Katalox Light of around 15 gpm/sf. It would have been interesting to see if a higher BW would have affected things for me. My well pump could handle it, but as mentioned, the crazy high pH and high hardness were doing a number on my wife's hair, and that had to stop

The KL literature calls for 10-12 gpm/sf, presumably 10 for cold water (which my water is) and 12 for warm. For my 13" tank, 10 gpm equates to 11 gpm/sf with zero adjustment (worst case), and 15.5 using the Vortech claim of 30% (best case). Per Reach4's chart, this results in somewhere between 30-40% bed expansion. So my 10 gpm backwash seems to be "by the book", and if the Vortech claim is valid, hits your higher target.

My pH and hardness levels were coming down, but slowly. Between the first and second test, I ran the equivalent of 2-3 month's worth of backwashes. A higher BW rate may have brought the levels down quicker, I assume by removing the hydrated lime binder, but it looks like at best it still would have taken a lot of time. While I could live with temporarily high hardness, the pH in particular was proving stubbornly high. I wish I could have tried the higher BW to get the data, but as mentioned, I want to stay married

I spoke recently with a designer/dealer, and while KL works fine for most of their customers, they have apparently been seeing cases like mine, enough so that they are planning to include a disclaimer with their literature and recommendations. They are not sure whether certain water chemistry causes the pH/hardness spike, or whether some batches of KL have higher amounts of the hydrated lime binder. I'm not sure if they have tried higher backwash rates.

I was disappointed in Watch-Water’s customer service. After several days in touch with a US rep and some emails to Germany, I didn’t get any meaningful help or advice. They seemed baffled.

I understand that for many cases KL works well, but I think their literature should disclose about possible increases to hardness and pH. Their recommendation for inlet water pH is 5.8-10.5...it seems to me there should be some kind of warning about using KL when a customer is starting with high pH. Possibly they should raise their recommended backwash rate also (they did this once – I stumbled on an older spec sheet, and it used to be 8-10 versus the 10-12 current).

One of the nice things about the Birm literature is that its limitations and contra-indications are clearly disclosed, like not playing well with H2S

So now, I have mixed media of 1 cf of Birm, and 1 cf of Centaur carbon, and once again I should have researched more first! But for the time being, the water is delicious.

I mentioned above that I had spoken with a tech rep for Clack/Birm, and he said that with lower to normal pH, the H2S wouldn’t be terrible for Birm, but at higher pH like mine, it would cause the Birm to fail prematurely. I had hoped that with air injection to oxidize the H2S, and Centaur carbon higher in the tank to intercept the H2S, the H2S might leave the Birm unmolested.

Looking back, I probably should have gone with straight Centaur carbon, because other than the high pH, my water is pretty tame and unremarkable. Next re-bed that’s probably what I’ll do, and if I can remember, will post here how long the Birm/Centaur carbon lasts. Hopefully the two media and the hydrogen sulfide can play nicely together for a while

Thanks again for your time and interest, and all the great info you contribute here!

 

[John K]

A quick follow-up on the rental house, with its low output/slow recovery well: I'm leaning toward straight Centaur carbon, no Birm or Katalox Light, as CC calls for a lower backwash rate than Birm or KL (not to mention that Birm doesn't like H2S, and KL runs the risk of increasing pH and hardness).

CC literature says it will take out my level of iron and H2S, but doesn't mention removing manganese. Manganese was tested at 0.04, just under the limit, but hopefully with the air injection some manganese will be removed also.

And some strategies I've come across to minimize water usage and stressing the well:

a. If possible, use a media with lower backwash rate (Centaur carbon).

b. Schedule more frequent backwashes, and reduce amount of time backwashing?

c. Schedule nightly backwash as early as possible to give well time to recover.

d. Rather than one larger tank, use two smaller tanks in parallel, alternating backwash days.

e. I looked at ozone, but it's pretty pricey, and it takes a big tank that there's no room for.

Any insight on this would definitely be appreciated.

 

[ditttohead]

Here is an interesting article re: pH and KL

http://www.watchwater.de/pdf/katalox-light/katalox-light-and-high-pH.pdf

 

[blaze4545]

And Birm with H2S, definite no no.

You mind explaining this Dittohead?

 

[WellOff]

I'm BAACK!

OK, so no one really remembers me...

Regarding Catalytic Carbon [CC] and manganese removal, I'm someone who has been living with CC and manganese for a while (which is why I'm back, again). I'm running H2O2 injection->contact tank-> CC (backwash filter)->1 micron Big Blue. My input numbers are, basically, 2ppm iron and 0.18 manganese. On output from my current setup I am below detection on iron but manganese remains (numbers are never affected).

I came to this site because I was told, by a water "specialist" who sold the system to me (no one here), that my system would remove my meager levels of manganese, and found that in real life it was NOT removing my manganese. After a LOT of research (and excellent input from folks here) I learned that CC isn't good at removing manganese.

Many people, my wife included, won't likely detect the levels of manganese that is in our water. I, however, am not such a person, in which case even this low amount of manganese taunts me every time I have coffee or tea.

Through this forum I learned about Katalox Light [KL]. I obtained a test filter of KL from dittohead and was able to get, for the first time ever, manganese-free water. That is, the lab results showed manganese levels under the 0.05ppm (or whatever it is) threshold. Numbers are fine, but it's taste, my mouth, that mattered, and I found that the water tasted great. I did note that it was sweeter, which I believe is the result of a slightly increased pH level (the lab showed it as being higher, but not significantly so; hardness wasn't affected if I recall correctly): I suspect that the sense of sweetness might have had a lot to do with the absence of manganese, the metallic taste,

Catalytic Carbon will NOT remove manganese (to a low enough level). Katalox Light WILL remove manganese such that it is basically undetectable. And this is the WORD from my lab.

Note that I am using H2O2. My well is shallow, tannins are a concern, and I have IRB. My injection rate is very trivial: I don't even go through a gallon of H2)2 in one year.

 

[ditttohead]

Glad to hear the pilot filter worked. I am not much of a fan of using h2o2 and carbon for iron or manganese reduction but it definitely works for iron in most applications. You could likely rebed your carbon tank with KL and do just fine.

Only a gallon per year... that is very low. Typical injection rate is .5 ppm of h2o2 per ppm of iron and 1:1 for manganese. H2S should be 1.5 h202 to each ppm of H2s. I like to run a 2 ppm residual. Your injection rate should be approximately 2-4 ppm assuming you don't have h2s. H2o2 can also do some tannin reduction though this is not a common practice. I don't think it reduces the tannins, it just hides them.

Thanks so much for the update!