Iron to brass to lead toiler riser

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Dan Laffitte

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First time, long time - and thanks in advance. Information from this forum helped me update all the water piping in my new, old house.

I have a 1938 fixer and am working to remodel a 1/2 bath. I think most of my questions were answered in a similar forum question here (https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/638462/). The lead pipe leading up to my toilet is in good shape, it's just that the flange at the top has broken. I have read that I should not install a closet flange that slips into the lead pipe and tightens from compression because the lead pipe would not keep its form. Assuming that's the case, and I cannot install a new flange, I assume my solution would be similar to that suggested in the referenced forum. Remove down to the hub and replace with ABS or PVC pipe. Assuming that's the best solution, I think I have a little brass to deal with and wondered how this complicates things.

1. Is the best solution to drill out the brass connector and lead pipe above?
2. Anything special to get the brass out of the iron stack pipe? Or, would I just drill through the brass in places and start working it out?

Thanks

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Terry H

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If I’m understanding you correctly, I rarely pour lead and was fortunate enough to work with someone who showed me how, but I would cut it out and use either an insert fitting and go to pvc or use a fernco or no hub band and go to pvc.

Diablo makes a good blade to cut it and so does Lenox or use a chain break or grinder. To get the lead out drilling holes in it and a hammer and chisel get it out. I see everybody do it a little different. Once you get it loose it comes out easier than you’d think.
 

Dan Laffitte

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Terry H - thanks for the response, and I just want to make sure I get what you're suggesting. It actually seems inline with what I expected. My fix would include the following steps:

1. Drill holes in the existing brass fitting that the lead riser is connected to.
2. Remove brass and lead riser.
3. Clean out the cast iron hub and prepare it for a new, Fernco donut.
4. Insert appropriately sized donut, and then typical steps to install the pipe and closet flange for the new toilet. I am assuming that the Fernco Donut is what you were suggesting as an insert fitting?

If the only way to use the lead riser that's in good shape is to pour lead, I agree that this would be beyond my current skill set.

Thanks,

Dan

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Reach4

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If that lead was 4 inch ID, there is something that could work pretty easily. Otherwise, that donut is the deal.

But yes, there would be a way to use the lead in good condition-- not that I could tell you how. What's wrong with what is there now? Wrong height?
 

Jadnashua

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Lead gets work hardened, so bending it back and then trying to force it back over a new ring is risky, it tends to split. Now, you can patch it, but compression rings aren't really designed to work with lead pipe.

The brass ferrule going into the hub, and all that's above would come out, the hub cleaned up, then a donut correctly sized and pvc or abs, whatever is prevalent in your area used to build it back up.
 

Dan Laffitte

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Reach4 - thanks, and am sharing more info:
  • The lead riser is actually 4-inch ID, new photos below.
  • The flange that is soldered to the lead riser is not level, so assumed I would need to replace. Also, I had previously cut the flange bolts off, you can still see them in the flange.
  • Additionally, there was a deep mud bed before that I removed and the new floor system and tile will be only 7/8 thick. The flange rides up at close to 1 3/4 above sub floor, and will end up just under a full inch above the finished floor.
Not sure if the 4-inch ID pipe opens up another alternative, would be interested if so. But, I could also just drill into the brass and lead if that's the better solution.

thanks.
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Sylvan

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VERY easy fix as I do it a lot of times

Get a decent plumber who knows to buy a deep brass floor flange and then solders the flange to the existing lead

If the lead pipe is damaged then the plumber can make a "cup joint" using solder such as Flemico #1 40 -60

The existing lead must be clean,clean ,clean so it will adhere to the brass flange


FORGET Fernco couplings
 

Reach4

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Sylvan's method is better if you can find that skilled plumber.

But the Sioux Chief 887-GPM will push into a 4 inch ID. There is even a way to extend it to make it longer. I would apply a thick plumbing grease when inserting, but that is not commonly done. I have never used one, but it looks useful.

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Jadnashua

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To put tile over those planks will require at least a 1/2" ply, then some tile compatible layer (cement board, or a membrane), then your tile, so it will likely end up lots more than 7/8". You cannot put any tile compatible layer directly over planks except a floating mud bed. The thinnest buildup would be 1/2" ply, a membrane like Ditra, then your tile. If you go with a cbu, you'll end up at least 3/16-5/16" thicker. Prior to installing anything over the planks, get some deck screws and anchor those planks down well.

If you want to get help on tiling the area, check out www.johnbridge.com. The Tile Council of NA (TCNA) publishes an industry 'bible', updated annually, on how to tile things. Failing to follow one of those minimum methods is asking for failure.

Lead is quite malleable, so trying to make a compression seal from the inside or outside is really risky. It often is no longer truly round, either. Solder works fine, but it takes some practice and the right tools.
 

Dan Laffitte

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Jadnashua - good advice on the substrate and I was already planning on using the Ditra membrane, after the 1/2 inch plywood addition. I agree it might be thicker, but the tiles I have in mind are only a 1/4 inch.

I will post photos of whatever solution path I travel.
 

Mr tee

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I'd remove everything down to an empty the cast iron hub. I assume that you aren't interested in pouring melted lead, but using either a donut or even oakum and Black Swan Soil-O put in a piece of PVC or ABS stubbed up a bit higher than the floor will be. You can cut it flush with the finished floor later and use a ring that slides inside the 4" pipe. It is time for that old stuff to go and with the floor open and new tile going in, now is that time.

I highly recommend AGAINST using a ring that pushes into that old lead.
 
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