Iron Bacteria - Hot Water Side

Users who are viewing this thread

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Hello All,

First I want to say I have read and read and read a lot if not all of the posts on Iron Bacteria, but unfortunately, I still have a few questions!
Short (not so short) Summary:
We purchased our house 2 years ago, and initially had a mineral/sulfur odor. We noticed this smell mainly when showering or doing the dishes. Very mild staining in sinks and toilets, but the inside of the toilets did/do have a slight brown film on the inside walls (photo attached). We called in a local water company, and they did the initial tests and found the water to be hard, and very low iron (sorry I don't have results). This being the case, we discussed a softener, and an iron filter. The company suggested the softener since it would do the work to remove the iron as well. We moved forward with the softener, and discussed the iron filter for future.

Fast forward a few months, and the odor was still there on the hot water side. We called in another company to discuss, and again they tested the water and found the softener was working and the iron was very low. Then he looked in the toilet and saw the brown walls, and said we needed a chlorine injection system.
Not sure of this, we called back the other company, and they said no to the chlorine its old technology. However, they did test both the hot and cold water for iron and the hot water was higher. Based on all testing and observations we decided to chlorinate the hot water tank. We let it set for a few hours then drained. It did not help for more than a day. Maybe an iron filter was in order, but they did not recommend one at that point I also spoke with the hot water tank (superstore) manufacturer, and they said "This known as desulfovibrio, you can install a chlorine feeder; or periodic flushing with common household bleach, This process is 100% effective only if a continuous chlorine feeder is installed. Also, increase the temperature on the tank to 160.00 º F ." The tank was at factory 120, so we turned it up. After more research on Iron bacteria, we decided to shock the well. This removed the smell for a couple of weeks, but it returned.

Fast forward another few months, and we determined we had to get a new hot water tank. There was too much sludge/slime there. We replaced the tank with another SuperStor, and the smell went away. That was 3 months ago, and now the odor has returned!! We also remodeled the bathroom, and there is no slime in the toilet (photo attached).

I am getting ready to shock the well again per @Reach4 procedure. However, I feel like we need a better long term solution.

My questions:
- Is there an iron filter out there that removes iron bacteria?
- Do I need to go with a chlorination system?
- Why do I only have the issue on the hot water side?

dirty.jpg
Clean.jpg

Thank you for your time, and sorry for the long post.
Dave
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
I agree to sanitizing your well and plumbing, and I expect the effect will last longer than you expect. I am hoping years, but YMMV.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/
This writeup is more rigorous than most, and calls for accumulating some things in advance. Getting enough concentration in the water heater takes extra attention, because the tank is a big volume. I think the more you kill off, the longer the effect lasts. The common way just doesn't kill as effectively.

August is a nice time for sanitizing in colder climates, and September can be nice for that. January and February are usually not nice for that.

You can probably get some improvement on the H2S by cranking the temperature of the WH over 140, but it will not totally eliminated SRB growth. If the WH is hot, you should have a tempering valve for the hot to prevent scalding. Generating H2S in the WH, as I understand it, take sulfate, SRB, a metal ion such as from a sacrificial anode, and a temperature that the bacteria can operate in. The deal is that if most of the WH is too hot for SRB, there will be some part which is not too hot such as near the cold water intake. A powered anode can protect the WH like magnesium, but not produce the ions to support SRB. Despite the cost, I like the Ceranode unit because the electrode is longer. A stubby anode would seem to me to not protect the bottom part of the tank as well as a longer anode IMO. I have illustrated that in another post.

Some plumbers in some areas will routinely pull the sacrificial anode, and replace that with a plug (preferably brass). That keeps the ions from supporting the SRB, but the tank does not get the protection.

The accumulation in your toilet tank over two years is not much at all. But you may be able to clean that some with some Iron Out crystals and a brush.

Your septic system can tolerate some bleach, but you would like to minimize that. I have a friend who puts a slow-release chlorine tablet in the toilet tank, despite having a septic system, and knowing that chlorine is hard on the flapper.
 
Last edited:

Skyjumper

Member
Messages
213
Reaction score
8
Points
18
Location
Midwest
My questions:
- Is there an iron filter out there that removes iron bacteria?
- Do I need to go with a chlorination system?
- Why do I only have the issue on the hot water side?

View attachment 75699 View attachment 75700
Thank you for your time, and sorry for the long post.
Dave

we had the same issue a couple years back. here's the thing, yes a softener will do a good job removing low levels of Fe, but regular salt regeneration will not remove the iron from the softener. Over time the residual iron builds up and clogs the softener valve and resin bed, creating a breeding ground for the metal eating bacteria. from there they travel on to your hot water tank where conditions are ideal for them to really bloom, and you get sulfur smell. alternately, some residual Fe will escape the softener to the hot water tank and cause the same issue. all of my neighbors have the same problem.

you need to get rid of the iron by using resin cleaners in your softener. this will prevent the bacteria from taking hold and stop the sulfur smell. you can try iron out or rescare, but the only product that worked for me was this stuff https://www.crystalclean.us/ I know it reads like a late night infomercial, but this stuff really works. you will also have to flush and sanitize your hot water tank once (after you clean up the softener). you should also do a complete tear down/cleaning/rebuild of your softener valve to clean out any trapped iron sludge as none of the cleaners can get all of that out, but if thats too ambitious just use the crystal clean you should have good results.
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
@Reach4 thank you for the reply.
I am not sure if the smell coming from the HW is H2S, or just a mineral smell from the iron. Either way, I want to make sure this new tank is not sliming up like the old one. Would you recommend draining the tank, and then introducing the chlorinated water from the well, or should I introduce bleach directly into the HW tank via the softener for a higher dose? I have a few other questions regarding this, but I posted those on your 4" well sanitation procedure post!

@skyjumper thanks for the info on cleaning the softener. That was my next question, and what I should do. My plan was to bypass it while doing the well sanitation. What is the common practice here? Should I bypass the softener and just clean like you suggest, or should I go ahead and chlorinate with the well cleaning, and then sanitize like you suggest?

Thanks again all!!

Dave
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
I am not sure if the smell coming from the HW is H2S, or just a mineral smell from the iron. Either way, I want to make sure this new tank is not sliming up like the old one. Would you recommend draining the tank, and then introducing the chlorinated water from the well, or should I introduce bleach directly into the HW tank via the softener for a higher dose? I have a few other questions regarding this, but I posted those on your 4" well sanitation procedure post!
Note the Fleck service manual prescribes some bleach into the brine tank during startup.

I don't know your slime, but if it is rust colored, maybe consider Res-Up or Rescare (liquid phosphoric acid-based or Iron Out crystals. Would you like a suggested procedure on treating your old softener for iron with Iron Out periodically?

It involves in dissolving an amount of IO into a bucket with warm water, adding that to the brine tank, starting a regen, and stopping the brine draw as the brine tank almost empties. That lets the IO sit in contact with the resin more.

Chlorine injection or H2O2 is still a good way to treat stuff. It should be followed by GAC in a backwashing tank to remove the residual. That is effective at high levels of iron.

I really suspect a good sanitizing will have an impressive effect on your H2S. How long? 3 months would be a disappointment.
 
Last edited:

Skyjumper

Member
Messages
213
Reaction score
8
Points
18
Location
Midwest
chlorine is generally not good for softener resin, but a one-time sanitization shouldn't hurt it too much. you can also extend it to the hot water tank while you're at it, open the drain valve until you smell bleach coming out. but chlorine will not expel the iron from the softener so you'll still have to treat it with crystal clean. and do an extra backwash before you put the softener back in service to get all the chlorine out.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
Regular sanitizing of the resin will have little negative affect. We have estimated calculations on ho long resin can hold up under chlorinated water supplies, and if you figure 10 years at 1 ppm, a simple sanitization of a few hundred ppm is really nothing more than a couple hundred gallons of municipal water usage. We are testing regular sanitizing with ozone now and so far the tests are as expected, minimal damage to the resin especially fi the water is dechlorinated... as to the iron bacteria issues, lets see a real water report before we make any assumptions or recommendations. otherwise we are really only throwing out wild guesses. Can you post your water test results?
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Hey guys, thank you again for the replies. I am working on getting this whole house filter set up, and also hitting the road for family vacation.
I'll be back in touch in a week or so with a few more answers, and probably a few more questions!

@ditttohead I still need to send the water out for testing. At this point I'm going from experience with the house, odor, and visual cues. Water report won't be until I return.

Thank you all again. Talk soon.
Dave
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Hey All, I'm back on this IRB hot water situation, and needless to say it is only getting worse. I am going to call in a couple of water companies to come in and give me estimates, but I honestly don't trust what they'll say. They each have a different piece of equipment they want to put in, and none of them know a whole lot about IRB.
My question - Is a chlorinating system the only type system to control IRB from the well when they come into the house?
If it is not the only system/way, what are the other options that I could be presented with? Will an iron out system work?
I know a water test needs to be done, and that will be my first request. However, I want to be educated on what they may recommend, so I can speak to them about it.
Please recommend any and all systems that you have seen/used to remove IRB. Again, the only place we are experiencing them is from the hotter tank. I'm sure they are on the cold water side, but they are not affecting anything.
Thanks you for your quick and thorough responses!!
Dave
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
My question - Is a chlorinating system the only type system to control IRB from the well when they come into the house?
If it is not the only system/way, what are the other options that I could be presented with? Will an iron out system work?
To kill bacteria coming in, a 5 micron filter followed by a UV system will work. Without filtering before, a 5 micron filter will probably clog pretty soon. After the UV system is working, you will need to kill off any bacteria downstream, including all piping and WH.

Did you attempted sanitizing with a big flooding volume and pH reduction? Or did you take a shortcut? It is more intense than most do. How long did the H2S relief last? It would not be fun to try in the winter. If you re-do it, consider using more vinegar.

There are other disinfectants, with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) being the main alternative to chlorine. Neutra Sul is one brand of stabilized H2O2 sold for the purpose. But you need a much bigger concentration to kill bacteria than with chlorine bleach. And pH has a big effect on the killing power of chlorine bleach.

So what is your symptom that you are worried about? H2S from the WH? Or deposits in the toilet? If H2S, I would go with a powered anode. Some replace the anode with a brass plug for this. A powered anode does not support SRB, and protects the WH better. IMO a long anode is better (I like Ceranode), but even a stubby powered anode has to be a lot better than a plug.

For the toilet, there are cheap ways to put a little chlorine in the tank with each flush. The septic can tolerate that much chlorine.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
The buildup in a toilet tank will typically be slimey when caused by iron reducing bacteria.

To kill bacteria, usually chlorine or ozone will be utilized.

You mentioned raising the water heater temperature to 160°F. Was there any improvement after that? When the water is maintained constantly below 140°F, the temperature can be an incubator for bacteria.

By periodically increasing the WH temperature to 160 or above, the goal will be to sustain at least 140 at the bottom of the tank for several hours to kill off bacteria throughout the entire tank. If there is any sediment accumulation within the tank, it can act to insulate bacteria that is buried within.

Gas fired WHs will increase the water temperature more rapidly than an electric heater so the sanitation duration will need to be extended accordingly. Because the gas burner is located below the tank, bacteria within
Sediment will be less of a problem compared to an electric WH which will heat the water above any sediment.

Once the extra hot water within the WH has been sustained for several hours while no hot water has been drawn, it is advisable to open each hot faucet throughout the home to allow the piping to be sanitized before lowing the water temperature to the usual safer 120°F.

As you have not yet obtained a lab test for your raw well water, National Labs offer a Standard Well package that is recommended. http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
@Reach4 The toilets and cold water are not as concerning. The cold water has no odor, nor does it have any black spec/residue. I'm sure overtime it may start sliming the inside of the new toilets, but it doesn't really seem to be that big of an issue. It's been 10 months and the inside of the toilet tanks still look good.
The issue is the odor and black flecks coming out of the hot water tank (80 gallon HTC indirect). I should add the black flecks do not smear. I have attached a few photos. Unfortunately, it won't let me upload the video of me trying to smear the black flecks. They just pool together, and you can wipe them down the drain. The inside of the toilet is to show no slime growth after 10 months.
IMG_3864.JPG IMG_3865.JPG IMG_3868.JPG

I last shocked the well (heavy dose of chlorine, white vinegar, dawn dish soap), and the problem came back within 6 months. I was ready to do it again, but the wife said she's tired of having to manually do this all this time. She'd rather get a system in place to deal with it. This is why I'm looking for a long term solution.

I have the whole house filters (2) 4.5" x 10" blues. I can configure those with any micron. My initial plan was to do a progressive down to 5 micron, and then the second maybe tighter, or a special iron out/carbon one. I'd much rather do this with filtration and UV if possible. I don't really like the thought of a whole chlorination system.

Thanks again for any help!!
Dave
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
The issue is the odor and black flecks coming out of the hot water tank (80 gallon HTC indirect). I should add the black flecks do not smear.
I would flush the WH. Seems to me that sediment could sequester SRB from sanitizing events. Flushing is an easy DIY thing. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....o-flush-a-hot-water-heater.79444/#post-576623 post #7.

Hmm. HTC indirect WH. No anode, and a stainless steel tank? https://htproducts.com/literature/mktlit-111.pdf
That is different than the typical setup. I don't see a separate drain port. And no sacrificial anode to help support SRB. So the usual suspect does not apply.

When you sanitize a WH, there is a lot of volume. So that can dilute the sanitizing unless special care is taken.

Good idea on the smearing comment. Still if you have braided "stainless steel" connector lines, you might want to replace those with corrugated copper or stainless.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
If you have some way to backwash the WH, that would sound useful.

I have thought about sticking a wand in to stir up sediment. Small pressure washer tip, or is that too rough. Or maybe Camco 40103 (25.5 inches long), for a gentle version.


You might try a treatment with H2O2.
http://waterheatertimer.org/How-to-flush-water-heater.html#:~:text=Add 2 pints harmless Hydrogen,Let stand for 2 hours.&text=Then drain tank to flush,then turn on water heater.

Nutra Sul https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pro-Products-1-Gal-Neutra-Sul-HP01B/306730109
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
@Reach4
I have the HTP Contender which I think does have an anode rode:
https://htproducts.com/literature/lp-66.pdf
https://htproducts.com/literature/lp-65.pdf
I also just recently purchased a transfer pump from lowes, so I could efficiently drain:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-0-5-HPCast-Iron-Electric-Utility-Pump/1000668939

I also found online a link to disinfecting a HW tank which I was going to try, but haven't yet. I'm not sure about it:
https://dem.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/de...nfection the Hot Water Portion of Hous....pdf

Thanks,
Dave
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
You could try removing the sacrificial anode and putting in a powered anode. I would. It may take an impact wrench. A 6-sided 1-1/16 socket on a breaker bar may be sufficient since this is new. Only try that if the tank is full, because the weight of the water helps hold the tank in place.

Also see http://waterheatertimer.org/How-to-flush-water-heater.html and search for peroxide.
 
Last edited:

Skyjumper

Member
Messages
213
Reaction score
8
Points
18
Location
Midwest
a quick temporary fix is to purge 5-10 gals out the HW tank pressure relief valve. that will purge the H2S trapped inside. I did this every morning for a while until I figured out how to clean the iron from the softener. it'll get rid of the smell for the rest of the day, and then overnight the gasses will build back up. get a 5 gal bucket and a section of pipe to direct the discharge into the bucket. take off the downpipe first if one exists. or I just ran a hose from it to my sump pit and dumped the water there.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
I also found online a link to disinfecting a HW tank which I was going to try, but haven't yet. I'm not sure about it:
https://dem.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/demnvgov/content/Resources/NVCoop Ext_Shock Chlorination_Disinfection the Hot Water Portion of Hous....pdf
That does not recognize the effect of pH on the sanitizing.

If the solution is too acid, chlorine bleach can cause generation of chlorine. That is dangerous for breathing.

But vinegar mixed with water before adding the bleach would not get low enough pH for chlorine generation normally. Read up on that, and see what you think. I like reading the pH after circulating to see if I want to add more vinegar. Like chlorine, it gets consumed doing its job.
 

Dave Bowers

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
A couple of questions for everyone:
1. @ditttohead - I am getting the water tested this week - What is/are the best/necessary test(s) to have performed on my well water when I believe there is IRB?

2. I have to sanitize this hot water tank (the hot water is nasty and stinking up the house), but I want to wait until I have the water test complete. Once complete, do you believe that I can use my transfer pump to just pump the Vinegar and Chlorine into the tank via the drain? I'm thinking drain the tank, fill 25-50% with incoming water, then with the PRV open, pump the vinegar and chlorine into the tank, close PRV, fill and then sanatize all HW lines in house. Let sit for 24 hours, drain, flush, drain. Thoughts?

3. My wife is determined to purchase a system to solve this problem. She does not want us (me) to have to monitor, shock, drain, sanitize, etc for the rest of our ownership of this property. Ultimately, is a chlorinating system the best way to go in your opinion? If not, what else should I be considering??

Thank you all!
Dave
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks