Intermittent well pump trouble

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J Ellis

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Hello,

I'd like some feedback from others who have experience with 2-wire control submersible pumps. I'm having an intermittent problem where the pump fails to pump water.

Here are the specifics of my system:
Utilitech 3/4 HP UT202, 230 VAC - Pump is 4 years old
When I installed it I took amp readings of 8.9 and 8.6
The inrush current is 36A.
Two-wire control
I have a check valve installed discharge side of the pump and another one inlet side of the tank tee
pump is down 235 feet from pitless adapter, piping is about 45 ft. horizontal to bladder tank.

brand new pressure switch (I always use the Auto Cut Off switches w/lever)
bladder tank PSI is set at 30psi and pressure switch settings are 32On/ 52Off.

I've had a camcorder setup for the past two weeks recording the water psi gauge and the pressure switch contacts. Friday morning it didn't pump in the middle of a shower. I manually flipped the switch On once and it immediately started pumping again. The next day in the evening it stopped pumping and I went back down and it took about 10 tries flipping the level to get it to pump water.

When going back and reviewing the camcorder I can clearly see the contacts close and the water gauge slowly drop down below 30PSI and then plummet. So the purpose of having the camcorder setup proved useful in that I can tell the PSwitch is working correctly.

I connected an amp meter on the wires going down to the pump and measured the inrush at 36Amps and the 8.9A after the initial inrush. I only held the switch lever on a 1-2 seconds each try. About the 6-9 tries the amp meter read 0.00 and 10-12 tries it showed the amps and eventually started pumping again. I suspect the 3-4 tries it didnt measure any amps was a thermal circuit in pump needing to cool down?

Normally, if it starts to pump it will immediately pull in the pressure switch contacts and you can let go of the lever. I like these switches better because had it been the always closed contact (universal) switch it would have burned my pump up. That's a discussion for another day.

Checked my voltage when pump is off and it is 246VAC and drops down to 244VAC when pump is running.

When this intermittent problem started about month ago I contacted Utilitech and inquired about the pump. The tech I spoke with thought maybe the Capacitor in the start circuit was going bad. The info give me was:
Pump Amps 8A but i'm overdrawing 8.9 amps (never blown a fuse or tripped the breaker though)
3.0 - 3.6 Ohms; Low - short, high - open winding

I used a Fluke Insulation tester and took the following readings at the pressure switch (yes I disconnected the wires from the switch first)

Ohm Test on Winding:
Red - Black = 4.22 / Black - Red = 4.51
I believe the motor windings ohms are good given I have about 290 feet of pump wire I'm also measuring.

Insulation test: 500V and 1000V ranges
each phase to ground = 0.01 mOhms or 10,000 ohms

I have not meggered this when pump fails to start as described above.

Based on what I've described above what are the possible problems?

Mechanical?

Electrical? Based on I was seeing current but pump failed to pump water does that mean the start circuit wasn't rotating pump? Is it possible the capacitor is going bad? Don't caps usually just blow and that's the end of them?

I'm trying to Not just throw another well pump at this. I replaced this pump 4 years ago. Looking over the options I have if I replace this pump I have Utilitech which Lowes sells and bad reviews. HD has a brand I'm not sure about. Tractor Supply sells "CountyLine" which is made by Pentair Flotec. I'm considering getting one of those based on the reviews.

Besides the non-pumping water "intermittent problem" i'm having, I have another question about sizing the pump. Current pump is 3/4 HP Utilitech, rated for 250Ft. My pump is down 235 feet and amp draw is just over 8 FLA at 8.9 -8.6A. If I went with the HD brand 3/4 HP it's only rated 200ft. The Tractor Supply pump 3/4 HP pump is rated 200ft. I believe the 1HP pump should be ok being its rated for 300ft depth. I'm concerned about amps though.

Electrical consideration:
My breaker is in garage which has about a 45ft run of 14gauge romex to basement where I installed a fuse box with two 20A fuses. From there I used 12-2 gauge romex to pressure switch and back to gang box where I put my amp meter. The pump cable is rated 12 awg pump cable for two wire control.

To get back to the original question, what are some steps I could do to troubleshoot this intermittent problem I'm having where it doesn't pump water?
Other info: well has never run out of water. There is no air coming out of faucets when the pump fails to work.

(I do realize eventually if it's a mechanical or electrical issue with the pump it's going to fail and no matter how many times I flip the PS lever it's not going to come on).

The reason I'm hesitating just yanking the thing out of the well is the work that goes into it. I use a homemade t-wrench to pull out of pitless adapter and drag out with a 55 gallon drum laying down anchored against the well casing (makes the perfect angle) using the lawn tractor. It's an all day job but saves me money doing it.

Thank you for reading all of this as I have put some thought into this email and hope someone can give me some good info for further troubleshooting.

Jeff E.
Pennsylvania
 

Reach4

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brand new pressure switch (I always use the Auto Cut Off switches w/lever)
bladder tank PSI is set at 30psi and pressure switch settings are 32On/ 52Off.

You could compare calibration of the air pressure gauge and the water pressure gauge. When the pump is stopped, and the water pressure gauge says 35.... 50, the air pressure will be about the same as the water pressure. It could be that your air pressure should be dropped by about 1 psi to make sure the pressure tank has water to supply while the pressure switch reacts and the pump gets the water moving.

It would be better to not have the check valve up top.

Other info: well has never run out of water. There is no air coming out of faucets when the pump fails to work.
You might consider using a pressure switch with no low-pressure cut-off.

I don't know why you are getting that overtemp cutout in the pump.

Water well pumps should not be though of as just 3/4 HP pumps. There is also an important gpm figure. The pumps you are buying may be 10 gpm pumps.

How big is your pressure tank, and what is the minimum time the pump runs when it starts? A 10 gpm pump should have a 44 gallon pressure tank, rather than a 32.
 

J Ellis

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You could compare calibration of the air pressure gauge and the water pressure gauge. When the pump is stopped, and the water pressure gauge says 35.... 50, the air pressure will be about the same as the water pressure. It could be that your air pressure should be dropped by about 1 psi to make sure the pressure tank has water to supply while the pressure switch reacts and the pump gets the water moving.

It would be better to not have the check valve up top.


You might consider using a pressure switch with no low-pressure cut-off.

I don't know why you are getting that overtemp cutout in the pump.

Water well pumps should not be though of as just 3/4 HP pumps. There is also an important gpm figure. The pumps you are buying may be 10 gpm pumps.

How big is your pressure tank, and what is the minimum time the pump runs when it starts? A 10 gpm pump should have a 44 gallon pressure tank, rather than a 32.

I have had a camcorder setup to watch the pressure switch contacts and the water gauge. I have watched the recording when it works normally and compared it when it hasn't pumped. The contacts did close but the water gauge held steady for a bit and eventually dropped. Not sure if this info helps.
To answer your questions I just checked the water psi and tank psi with a handheld digital tire pressure gauge. I am seeing about 1psi lower tank pressure vs the water gauge. I check at lower end and right after pump filled tank. My tank is a Utilitech LPT52 which is a 52 gallon tank. It takes 1:30 seconds to fill tank. My pump is a 10gpm.
 

J Ellis

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You could compare calibration of the air pressure gauge and the water pressure gauge. When the pump is stopped, and the water pressure gauge says 35.... 50, the air pressure will be about the same as the water pressure. It could be that your air pressure should be dropped by about 1 psi to make sure the pressure tank has water to supply while the pressure switch reacts and the pump gets the water moving.

It would be better to not have the check valve up top.


You might consider using a pressure switch with no low-pressure cut-off.

I don't know why you are getting that overtemp cutout in the pump.

Water well pumps should not be though of as just 3/4 HP pumps. There is also an important gpm figure. The pumps you are buying may be 10 gpm pumps.

How big is your pressure tank, and what is the minimum time the pump runs when it starts? A 10 gpm pump should have a 44 gallon pressure tank, rather than a 32.

I have had a camcorder setup to watch the pressure switch contacts and the water gauge. I have watched the recording when it works normally and compared it when it hasn't pumped. The contacts did close but the water gauge held steady for a bit and eventually dropped. My feeling is if I had the no pressure cut off it would just kept throwing amps at it until something fried or ? This system has been in service for 4 years until problems started about a month ago. I think those pressure switches are for people who don't want to deal with nuisance trips.
The Not sure if this info helps. My tank is a Utilitech LPT52 which is a 52 gallon tank. It takes 1:30 seconds to fill tank. My pump is a 10gpm.
 

Reach4

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OK... that would tend to indicate that the precharge on the tank is probably not too high.

Unlikely situation to check for: suppose you attach a voltmeter across the output of the pressure switch (2 wires). Put the voltmeter in sight of the camera. Make sure that the voltage goes to 240 as soon as the pressure switch activates. If one of the contacts had an intermittent high resistance, that could cause your zero-current situation. Unlikely as this condition is, this is something you could try without pulling the pump.
 

J Ellis

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OK... that would tend to indicate that the precharge on the tank is probably not too high.

Unlikely situation to check for: suppose you attach a voltmeter across the output of the pressure switch (2 wires). Put the voltmeter in sight of the camera. Make sure that the voltage goes to 240 as soon as the pressure switch activates. If one of the contacts had an intermittent high resistance, that could cause your zero-current situation. Unlikely as this condition is, this is something you could try without pulling the pump.

I see what your saying, keep in mind that when the pump fails to start filling the tank, which has happened just a few times when I flip the lever up most of the time it immediately starts pumping. On two occasions it didn't lock itself in and I had to keep pushing the lever off and on. I didn't keep it on for long (1-2) in fear of burning something up... the 0.00 current readings were after I had kept working the lever. When this happens again I will hold the lever on a lot longer. The only problem when this situation occurs I have no way of knowing when and I would have to keep running downstairs to basement utility room and waking up the meter. They usually go to sleep after 10 minutes.
This is a brand new pressure switch I put in when this problem started. The contacts are good condition.
 

J Ellis

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I have had a camcorder setup to watch the pressure switch contacts and the water gauge. I have watched the recording when it works normally and compared it when it hasn't pumped. The contacts did close but the water gauge held steady for a bit and eventually dropped. Not sure if this info helps.
To answer your questions I just checked the water psi and tank psi with a handheld digital tire pressure gauge. I am seeing about 1psi lower tank pressure vs the water gauge. I check at lower end and right after pump filled tank. My tank is a Utilitech LPT52 which is a 52 gallon tank. It takes 1:30 seconds to fill tank. My pump is a 10gpm.
Clarification: 1min 30 seconds to fill not 1:30 seconds
 

J Ellis

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OK... that would tend to indicate that the precharge on the tank is probably not too high.

Unlikely situation to check for: suppose you attach a voltmeter across the output of the pressure switch (2 wires). Put the voltmeter in sight of the camera. Make sure that the voltage goes to 240 as soon as the pressure switch activates. If one of the contacts had an intermittent high resistance, that could cause your zero-current situation. Unlikely as this condition is, this is something you could try without pulling the pump.

another thing I will try to do is take another ohm reading on wires when it's in the condition where it has failed to pump. Only problem is either wife or two teenage kids taking showers or yelling they need water... gosh I wish they had city water on my street. we also have septic. I have forbidden them to throw wipes in the commodes. Just had septic tank company pump it out. I looked down in there and told them "let me know if you see wipes" . They actually did what I said...
 

Reach4

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another thing I will try to do is take another ohm reading on wires when it's in the condition where it has failed to pump.
Reading voltage and current at the same time seems like the better way.

If you are bringing out the ohmmeter, cut the power to the pressure switch.
 

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The overload in the motor is tripping because it is an 8 amp overload and the motor is drawing 8.9 amps. A 10 GPM, 3/4 HP can only reach 52 PSI if the water lever stays above 190'. My guess is during heavy use the water level is drawing down below 190'. and the pump cannot build to 52 to shut off. When this happens the motor stator gets hot and swells. The rotor starts dragging and causes wear and high amps. You either need a 3/4HP, 7 GPM or a 1HP, 10 GPM to pump from that depth. Taking a minute and a half to put 12-14 gallons in the tank is another clue the water level is deeper than that pump likes.
 
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