Intellivent Nightmare

[moucon]

Hi all - By way of intro I'm a 20-year editor at the Journal of Light Construction (www.jlconline.com), an experienced builder and HVAC mechanic, as well as being pretty good with technology (I moderate the business tech forum at the site above). So usually I'm handing out the advice - but this time I'm totally _stuck_. Hoping for some input. (And since I also moderate a board like this - I took my own advice and tried searching the forum first - before burdening everyone...)

THE PROBLEM>>>
My 5.75 yr old Intellivent-equipped "Reliance 606" (AO Smith, basically) direct vent HWT has become totally unreliable. Even after replacing the Intellivent valve and other parts under warranty - it now requires daily babysitting to keep it running. This tank worked _perfectly_ for 5+ years, and never caused me any trouble at all, except one time 2-3 yrs ago it did lock out when I left a can of solvent-based hardwood floor wax in the basement which locked out the flammable vapor sensor. . Removed the floor wax stuff - re-set the valve... no more problems for 2+ years... until last week. .

Last week the Intellivent controller locked out *totally* and would not clear and re-start. It generated the "all lights on" error (#9 in the manual - all lights on) -- which advises you
"If any of these error codes persist or cannot be cleared - replace the Intelli-Vent™ control. "

So I did.
Got new parts (under warranty)- and put 'em in.

Replaced the Intellivent valve, as well as the hot surface ignitor, NG orifice (same size opening), the flame sensor/wiring harness, and the flammable vapor sensor. They also gave me a new gasket for the inner flame door - but the old one was fine so I didn't install it. Installation totally uneventful - no problems whatsoever and everything went back together easily.

Now it's running again, but certainly not reliably. It locks out daily - still throws the #9 "replace the Intellivent valve" error -- except so far I've been able to clear the error and get it going by killing the power for a few minutes, and then doing the reset procedure.

I'm about ready to load the whole thing in the dumpster and install a new tank - except almost all of the power-vented residential tanks - regardless of manufacturer - use this exact same Intellivent gas valve.

Here are the only clues I've been able to catch -- when it first tries to fire after a lock-out/reset sometimes there is ONE "CLICK" - and that's it, it locks out again. I thought it might be a bad draft fan pressure switch (the gas valve won't open until the draft is proven) but The fan doesn't even get to start- so the problem is occurring very early in the ignition process. I don't think it's the pressure switch because the fan never even gets to start.

When it does run - the flame looks perfect, FWIW. Perfect blue flame. And the flame sensor is right in the flame where it should be . The tank recovers very quickly when it's working properly. I've been diligent about draining a few gallons off the bottom every year - so there is no build up of sediment in the bottom of the tank.

There is nothing else weird about the install- tank sits on an outside wall in my basement and it goes directly out the rim joist area - total effective length of the 2" vent is maybe 10' if that. One sweeping elbow and maybe 6' of pipe total. The wiring is fairly modern (house was built in 1990) and the electrical grounding is good. The polarity is correct on the outlet the tank is plugged into. The water coming into the tank is well water - very 'hard' - but it's filtered before the tank so there's no weird turbidity or other issues. Finally - since the Flammable Vapor sensor was replaced with the Intellivent - it can't be part of this problem (and it's not throwing the code for that - or anything else)

Anyone have any useful input? The only other part I can justify replacing _might_ be the vent pressure switch - but per before - I don't think that's the problem because it doesn't even get that far in the ignition process before locking out. There is probably zero chance i could get the supply house to give me another brand new Intellivent valve - although "replace valve" is the code I'm still getting. HELP!

All ideas greatly appreciated
- Joe Stoddard (moucon)

 

[Terry]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for posting the question here. Maybe Dana will see this and comment. He does more water heater related posts than me.

I have no idea if this helps.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

perhaps its just a lemon...
perhaps something has crawled up into the vent and blocked it off
if it is under 6 years old and you have had this much trouble with it , and you have attempted to make the repairs but to no avail, the next course of action ....I would discover a leak in the tank before the warranty runs out and simply change out the heater

 

[moucon]

Not a bad idea, unfortunately.
I don't think it's a lemon per se - it worked perfectly for 5+ years - but my theory is that the "new" Intellivent the wholesaler gave us may not have been so new. I personally didn't see it come out of a sealed box - the guy who picked it up for me examined it but according to him the counter guy came out of his cave with the part in an already-opened box. They say they "took it out of the box" to be sure it was the right part but I know how things go - he didn't say whether he cut the box open or not - and for all know it may have gone out to a job and never been installed - or it could have been installed and not worked so it wound up back on the wholesaler's shelf. We used the box the new part came in to send the old one back - so that box is now toast.

FWIW - there's nothing blocking any of the air intake or the venting - everything is clean as a whistle in the vicinity of the tank - and it never gets that far anyway. After a re-set, it will click once - and then immediately throw the #9 (all lights on - replace the valve) error. The venter motor doesn't even try to start- which is why I don't believe replacing the pressure switch will do any good either. I have learned (by daily re-sets) that giving it a tap on the side with the handle of a crescent wrench will get it start and run. (Get a bigger hammer theory) . If it re-sets and runs - it'll operate normally again for 24-36 hrs before crapping out.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

the channel lock or hammer smack on the side of the ICON gas valves works well too when those
honeywell valves get stubborn.. You do what ever you think is right, the clock is ticking on your warranty

 

[moucon]

I hear you loud and clear re: warranty Mark. Update. I sent an e-mail to AO Smith customer support with the issue and asking to ask to a SR PRODUCT ENGINEER (not a noob, not a call-taker) . Received a reply with a number to call - got on the phone with "Anthony" - a Sr. Product Engineer. The whole call took 5 minutes but bottom line, he agreed it had to be another bad valve - so he shipped out another one with a new wiring harness (which will have to be retrofitted on the outside of the tank) . No grief at all, other than he asked me to email them the sales receipt so they could make it a permanent part of the serial number (issue being the tank manufacture was in 2008 but I purchased March 09 - still in warranty). He did tell me these valves are very sensitive to line voltage problems and it doesn't take much of a surge or brown-out to wreck them. He also told me AO Smith ditched this valve in favor of the Honeywell and did a few other things to reduce nuisance lock-outs.

Our power is brittle here with lots of outages, surges, and brown-outs so it's possible that the first valve got fried by dirty power (although it worked without incident for 5+ years). The second valve - I remain suspicious that it was not quite as "new" as the wholesaler claimed. I've done business with that exact wholesaler for 30 yrs - it's common practice for contractors to take stuff back from jobsites and have them put it back in stock - what else are they gonna do? This time around - to take the 'dirty power' out of the equation - I have a very high-end UPS device (NOS) we had leftover from a server installation a few years ago - it's the type that buffers line voltage 100% of the time as well as providing power-out protection. I'm going to hook that up on the dedicated circuit that services the HWT.

Knowing my luck the tank itself will probably start leaking on March 26, 2015 (the day after the warranty expires) but for now - I'm well-satisfied with AO Smith. I was expecting a much bigger hassle and a fight, calls routed to India, yadda yadda. Despite being a big personal hassle this has still been an example of excellent customer service from the dealer to the manufacturer. Rare these days so Kudos to AO Smith.

I'll post back one last time after I get the new new parts installed.

 

[Jadnashua]

Something like this might be useful for you. It can be a little tricky setting up, but basically, you can have it monitor the power going in, and adjust the brownout cutout point, and set an adjustable delay to reapply power. Power right after it is restored can fluctuate all over the place and waiting some can help protect things. That, and a whole-house surge suppressor might be a good idea. Mersen makes some that work quite well, but aren't overpriced.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

no good deed ever goes unpunished,
so you are probably right about the water heater
it will get even with you and start leaking about a month out of warranty....

 

[Jp Bono]

Hi all - By way of intro I'm a 20-year editor at the Journal of Light Construction (www.jlconline.com), an experienced builder and HVAC mechanic, as well as being pretty good with technology (I moderate the business tech forum at the site above). So usually I'm handing out the advice - but this time I'm totally _stuck_. Hoping for some input. (And since I also moderate a board like this - I took my own advice and tried searching the forum first - before burdening everyone...)

THE PROBLEM>>>
My 5.75 yr old Intellivent-equipped "Reliance 606" (AO Smith, basically) direct vent HWT has become totally unreliable. Even after replacing the Intellivent valve and other parts under warranty - it now requires daily babysitting to keep it running. This tank worked _perfectly_ for 5+ years, and never caused me any trouble at all, except one time 2-3 yrs ago it did lock out when I left a can of solvent-based hardwood floor wax in the basement which locked out the flammable vapor sensor. . Removed the floor wax stuff - re-set the valve... no more problems for 2+ years... until last week. .

Last week the Intellivent controller locked out *totally* and would not clear and re-start. It generated the "all lights on" error (#9 in the manual - all lights on) -- which advises you
"If any of these error codes persist or cannot be cleared - replace the Intelli-Vent™ control. "

So I did.
Got new parts (under warranty)- and put 'em in.

Replaced the Intellivent valve, as well as the hot surface ignitor, NG orifice (same size opening), the flame sensor/wiring harness, and the flammable vapor sensor. They also gave me a new gasket for the inner flame door - but the old one was fine so I didn't install it. Installation totally uneventful - no problems whatsoever and everything went back together easily.

Now it's running again, but certainly not reliably. It locks out daily - still throws the #9 "replace the Intellivent valve" error -- except so far I've been able to clear the error and get it going by killing the power for a few minutes, and then doing the reset procedure.

I'm about ready to load the whole thing in the dumpster and install a new tank - except almost all of the power-vented residential tanks - regardless of manufacturer - use this exact same Intellivent gas valve.

Here are the only clues I've been able to catch -- when it first tries to fire after a lock-out/reset sometimes there is ONE "CLICK" - and that's it, it locks out again. I thought it might be a bad draft fan pressure switch (the gas valve won't open until the draft is proven) but The fan doesn't even get to start- so the problem is occurring very early in the ignition process. I don't think it's the pressure switch because the fan never even gets to start.

When it does run - the flame looks perfect, FWIW. Perfect blue flame. And the flame sensor is right in the flame where it should be . The tank recovers very quickly when it's working properly. I've been diligent about draining a few gallons off the bottom every year - so there is no build up of sediment in the bottom of the tank.

There is nothing else weird about the install- tank sits on an outside wall in my basement and it goes directly out the rim joist area - total effective length of the 2" vent is maybe 10' if that. One sweeping elbow and maybe 6' of pipe total. The wiring is fairly modern (house was built in 1990) and the electrical grounding is good. The polarity is correct on the outlet the tank is plugged into. The water coming into the tank is well water - very 'hard' - but it's filtered before the tank so there's no weird turbidity or other issues. Finally - since the Flammable Vapor sensor was replaced with the Intellivent - it can't be part of this problem (and it's not throwing the code for that - or anything else)

Anyone have any useful input? The only other part I can justify replacing _might_ be the vent pressure switch - but per before - I don't think that's the problem because it doesn't even get that far in the ignition process before locking out. There is probably zero chance i could get the supply house to give me another brand new Intellivent valve - although "replace valve" is the code I'm still getting. HELP!

All ideas greatly appreciated
- Joe Stoddard (moucon)

Have you tried the flame rod? Or the the thing that glows to light the water heater? Maybe it doesn't get hot enough or the position of the flame rod isn't touching the flame. So it won't allow it to stay lit. Sorry my grammar is turds.

JP Bono from calgary Canada

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

this thread was started back in 2014...
I think he has got it figured it out by now...

 

[Doreen]

I hear you loud and clear re: warranty Mark. Update. I sent an e-mail to AO Smith customer support with the issue and asking to ask to a SR PRODUCT ENGINEER (not a noob, not a call-taker) . Received a reply with a number to call - got on the phone with "Anthony" - a Sr. Product Engineer. The whole call took 5 minutes but bottom line, he agreed it had to be another bad valve - so he shipped out another one with a new wiring harness (which will have to be retrofitted on the outside of the tank) . No grief at all, other than he asked me to email them the sales receipt so they could make it a permanent part of the serial number (issue being the tank manufacture was in 2008 but I purchased March 09 - still in warranty). He did tell me these valves are very sensitive to line voltage problems and it doesn't take much of a surge or brown-out to wreck them. He also told me AO Smith ditched this valve in favor of the Honeywell and did a few other things to reduce nuisance lock-outs.

Our power is brittle here with lots of outages, surges, and brown-outs so it's possible that the first valve got fried by dirty power (although it worked without incident for 5+ years). The second valve - I remain suspicious that it was not quite as "new" as the wholesaler claimed. I've done business with that exact wholesaler for 30 yrs - it's common practice for contractors to take stuff back from jobsites and have them put it back in stock - what else are they gonna do? This time around - to take the 'dirty power' out of the equation - I have a very high-end UPS device (NOS) we had leftover from a server installation a few years ago - it's the type that buffers line voltage 100% of the time as well as providing power-out protection. I'm going to hook that up on the dedicated circuit that services the HWT.

Knowing my luck the tank itself will probably start leaking on March 26, 2015 (the day after the warranty expires) but for now - I'm well-satisfied with AO Smith. I was expecting a much bigger hassle and a fight, calls routed to India, yadda yadda. Despite being a big personal hassle this has still been an example of excellent customer service from the dealer to the manufacturer. Rare these days so Kudos to AO Smith.

I'll post back one last time after I get the new new parts installed.

I am having a similar issue. Water heater gives us error code 3. Seems to be unable to ignite and is continuously on the fritz.
Have replaced the 3 year old intellivent module unit 1 year ago. It worked for 2 months and failed again. Replaced the water heater and intellivent then. It is now 1 year later and it is constantly locking out.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

My guess is you have an issue with something restricting the flu pipe....