Installing a vintage toilet - need help please

[giantsquid]

Hi Everyone! First time here and extremely limited plumbing experience. I purchased a 1937 Abingdon toilet and want to install it in my old house. I have replaced toilets and tank components in the past, but only on contemporary toilets. On the flush valve, I think it is called the flush valve shank washer (? the rubber gasket under the seat), is corroded and dry. I assume it will leak and further disintegrate if I try to install as is. I was hoping to disassemble it and simply add a new washer, (as well as new tank-to-toilet gasket) or worst case, install a whole new flush valve, but turns out I can not get it off. Underneath the tank there is a brass cage which is how the tank connects to the bowl - it seems to be rusted stuck to the flush valve and I can't get it off. So I'm wondering if it would work to just caulk underneath the seat around the old red rubber washer? If so, what would be the best caulk to use considering it will be permanently submerged under water? Plumber's caulk? Aquarium sealant?

Also, it is the kind of bowl that has four bolts. I imagine I can just use screws into the floor on the front holes? Or if it doesn't compromise the stability maybe i don't really need them and could just cover the bolt holes with caps? Has anyone had a problem with not using the front bolts?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

P.S. I have tried to attach photos but I can't make it work - what kind of files are accepted? I have tried clicking on Attache files and have tried with both Jpeg and PNG files but blank squares are being added.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Hi Everyone! First time here and extremely limited plumbing experience. I purchased a 1937 Abingdon toilet and want to install it in my old house. I have replaced toilets and tank components in the past, but only on contemporary toilets. On the flush valve, I think it is called the flush valve shank washer (? the rubber gasket under the seat), is corroded and dry. I assume it will leak and further disintegrate if I try to install as is. I was hoping to disassemble it and simply add a new washer, (as well as new tank-to-toilet gasket) or worst case, install a whole new flush valve, but turns out I can not get it off. Underneath the tank there is a brass cage which is how the tank connects to the bowl - it seems to be rusted stuck to the flush valve and I can't get it off. So I'm wondering if it would work to just caulk underneath the seat around the old red rubber washer? If so, what would be the best caulk to use considering it will be permanently submerged under water? Plumber's caulk? Aquarium sealant?

Also, it is the kind of bowl that has four bolts. I imagine I can just use screws into the floor on the front holes? Or if it doesn't compromise the stability maybe i don't really need them and could just cover the bolt holes with caps? Has anyone had a problem with not using the front bolts?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

P.S. I have tried to attach photos but I can't make it work - what kind of files are accepted? I have tried clicking on Attache files and have tried with both Jpeg and PNG files but blank squares are being added.

Old toilets are very wasteful and generally not legal to be re-installed... But if you do choose to install it, you will likely need to completely dismantle all of the rubber components and replace them. If they have been sitting dry for a long period of time, they will have cracked beyond use. You definitely do not want to try to just caulk stuff since a toilet has a tank full of water and a valve that will replenish any water that leaks.. and if it leaks while you're out of the house it will just keep going and going.. I've seen houses filled with water from a busted valve..

To post photos, they need to be in JPG format and 800x800 pixels or less. I use MS Paint to resize mine.

 

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[giantsquid]

Old toilets are very wasteful and generally not legal to be re-installed... But if you do choose to install it, you will likely need to completely dismantle all of the rubber components and replace them. If they have been sitting dry for a long period of time, they will have cracked beyond use. You definitely do not want to try to just caulk stuff since a toilet has a tank full of water and a valve that will replenish any water that leaks.. and if it leaks while you're out of the house it will just keep going and going.. I've seen houses filled with water from a busted valve..

To post photos, they need to be in JPG format and 800x800 pixels or less. I use MS Paint to resize mine.

Thanks so much for the reply. I have definitely considered the wastefulness issue as I consider myself to be a very conservation oriented person. I plan on using one of those water displacement bags in the tank to reduce the water usage, there are only two of us in our household, we practice "if it's yellow let it mellow", have never watered our lawn, etc. So I would still like to install the toilet if I can make it work. Sounds like caulking is a bad idea though - I was hoping it could be a good alternative to replacing the rubber components. I appreciate the advice!

And my photos are magically loading now too.... The last photo is of the underside of the tank.

 

[John Gayewski]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have definitely considered the wastefulness issue as I consider myself to be a very conservation oriented person. I plan on using one of those water displacement bags in the tank to reduce the water usage, there are only two of us in our household, we practice "if it's yellow let it mellow", have never watered our lawn, etc. So I would still like to install the toilet if I can make it work. Sounds like caulking is a bad idea though - I was hoping it could be a good alternative to replacing the rubber components. I appreciate the advice!

And my photos are magically loading now too.... The last photo is of the underside of the tank.

The toilet will need most all of the water to flush correctly. They don't flush like a new toilet with a siphon jet in the front. I think you'll find this to be awful. Or you'll use all of the water it needs and it'll still be prone to plugging just because the old style toilets were.

If you mellow the yellow your causing issues with uric acid buildup on the outlet of the toilet/inlet of the piping. The pee pee crystallizes and forms a dam not to mention the other minerals that become solids while mellowing.

 

[giantsquid]

The toilet will need most all of the water to flush correctly. They don't flush like a new toilet with a siphon jet in the front. I think you'll find this to be awful. Or you'll use all of the water it needs and it'll still be prone to plugging just because the old style toilets were.

If you mellow the yellow your causing issues with uric acid buildup on the outlet of the toilet/inlet of the piping. The pee pee crystallizes and forms a dam not to mention the other minerals that become solids while mellowing.

Ah, I had never heard this about the uric acid buildup... May need to rethink the mellowing. As for the old toilet not functioning that well, I was worrying about this but thought I'd give it a try anyway, as the current toilet needs to be replaced anyway. Unfortunately I don't have the budget for one of the new old-style toilets, so I was hoping I could make this work.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The fill valve and the flush valve look like they can be replaced with new off the shelf components to me. Definitely the fill valve as its already replaced with a Fluidmaster. The Flush valve used a vertical rod with a big balloon style plunger to plug the drain hole. The gasket could be replaced easily if you can get the parts apart. They are brass, so should free up with some assistance. I've never worked on those myself, but I can't see how a new flush valve couldn't be fit in there to just operate more better than the old style.

What is that cage covering in the 3rd picture? I can see threads on the inside of it too which suggests it spins off somehow.. a good penetrating oil for a few days soak should get those apart.. again, they are brass, so no rust.

 

[giantsquid]

The fill valve and the flush valve look like they can be replaced with new off the shelf components to me. Definitely the fill valve as its already replaced with a Fluidmaster. The Flush valve used a vertical rod with a big balloon style plunger to plug the drain hole. The gasket could be replaced easily if you can get the parts apart. They are brass, so should free up with some assistance. I've never worked on those myself, but I can't see how a new flush valve couldn't be fit in there to just operate more better than the old style.

What is that cage covering in the 3rd picture? I can see threads on the inside of it too which suggests it spins off somehow.. a good penetrating oil for a few days soak should get those apart.. again, they are brass, so no rust.

The cage is attached to the flush valve and so far I haven't been able to unscrew it, to be able to replace the gasket (and then I would also need a new tank ball). Or maybe that's dumb and it would make more sense to replace the entire flush valve since as you said the fill valve is already a newer one so it's not like it's all original. However that cage is also the only way the tank attaches to the bowl. So if it can't attach securely to a new flush valve, I can't then attach the tank to the bowl. Sorry if I'm not explaining clearly. The photos below show that there is a piece that sits inside the cage and screws onto the threaded post that's in the bowl.

I will try a soak in oil to see if I can get them apart - any suggestions on what type to use?

I thought this could be a fun and satisfying project but maybe not worth it?

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The cage is attached to the flush valve and so far I haven't been able to unscrew it, to be able to replace the gasket (and then I would also need a new tank ball). Or maybe that's dumb and it would make more sense to replace the entire flush valve since as you said the fill valve is already a newer one so it's not like it's all original. However that cage is also the only way the tank attaches to the bowl. So if it can't attach securely to a new flush valve, I can't then attach the tank to the bowl. Sorry if I'm not explaining clearly. The photos below show that there is a piece that sits inside the cage and screws onto the threaded post that's in the bowl.

I will try a soak in oil to see if I can get them apart - any suggestions on what type to use?

I thought this could be a fun and satisfying project but maybe not worth it?

Ahh.. OK. so you must remove that cage to replace the gasket.. Never seen that before. Soak it with Kroil or other real penetrating oil.. not just WD40 that everyone has, tho it might work if that is all you have.

The tank ball thing is replacable too, we just tossed all of those types of repair parts. I kept a few randoms just to tinker with, but not the exact part you are fiddling with.

 

[giantsquid]

Ahh.. OK. so you must remove that cage to replace the gasket.. Never seen that before. Soak it with Kroil or other real penetrating oil.. not just WD40 that everyone has, tho it might work if that is all you have.

The tank ball thing is replacable too, we just tossed all of those types of repair parts. I kept a few randoms just to tinker with, but not the exact part you are fiddling with.

Thanks again - I'll try the Kroil.

 

[Peterson]

That toilet looks to be an old two piece toilet made by Case. Case was famous for their one piece toilets back in the 30's-50's and they were considered to be the "Cadillac" of toilets back then.

The cage screws on to the bottom of the flush valve. You would want to spray it down with WD40 and carefully try to unscrew it. You must be very careful as you could crack the tank if you are too forceful. I'd stick a wooden rod into the cage and try to turn it to loosen it up.

However if that thing is solid, I would be tempted to install it as is and see if the flush valve leaks. It might not. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You will want to keep the original flush valve as it is designed to fit that tank and the cage will probably not be able to screw onto a new flush valve. Maybe lightly sand down any corrosion with an emory cloth?

As far as the tank to bowl gasket goes, I'd get an American Standard gasket as they tend to fit a variety of older tanks/bowls.

The front bolts on the bowl just anchor the bowl on to the floor, not into the flange. The back two bolts are anchored to the flange.
Does the bowl have a protruding horn on the bottom of it? If it does, you might need a 4 inch flange.

Good luck!

 

[giantsquid]

That toilet looks to be an old two piece toilet made by Case. Case was famous for their one piece toilets back in the 30's-50's and they were considered to be the "Cadillac" of toilets back then.

The cage screws on to the bottom of the flush valve. You would want to spray it down with WD40 and carefully try to unscrew it. You must be very careful as you could crack the tank if you are too forceful. I'd stick a wooden rod into the cage and try to turn it to loosen it up.

However if that thing is solid, I would be tempted to install it as is and see if the flush valve leaks. It might not. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You will want to keep the original flush valve as it is designed to fit that tank and the cage will probably not be able to screw onto a new flush valve. Maybe lightly sand down any corrosion with an emory cloth?

As far as the tank to bowl gasket goes, I'd get an American Standard gasket as they tend to fit a variety of older tanks/bowls.

The front bolts on the bowl just anchor the bowl on to the floor, not into the flange. The back two bolts are anchored to the flange.
Does the bowl have a protruding horn on the bottom of it? If it does, you might need a 4 inch flange.

Good luck!

I am going to try to unscrew the cage from the flush valve as I would ideally like to replace the rubber components, and not risk having a leak - and you're probably right that the cage will not fit on to a new flush valve properly. I'm afraid to install it as is - even if it doesn't leak immediately I can imagine it giving way when I'm not around. It actually seemed pretty solidly sealed but when I tried to unscrew the cage it loosened up, and I broke the seal. So it might have worked if I hadn't messed with it but it's too late now. That's why I was hoping I could just seal around the old gasket with caulk but seems like everyone thinks that's a bad idea. The bottom of of the bowl seems to be normal.

Thank you for the suggestions! I really appreciate it.

This is the label on the tank. I tried to find other examples of the same toilet online without any luck.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The parts are made of brass and they weren't threaded together to hold water supply pressure, just enough to hold static pressure with a giant rubber gasket. They'll have some corrosion and maybe calcification, but they still should budge after a good soaking in a penetrating oil.

 

[giantsquid]

ok - Thanks!

 

[Peterson]

I sleuthed around online and discovered that the Abington Sanitary Manufacturing Company was founded in 1908 in the midwest. It later morphed into Briggs Plumbing in the 1940's which still exists today. I believe the Case and Briggs companies were somehow connected to each other, but am not sure. Briggs makes a toilet called the Abington.

 

[giantsquid]

Interesting... I did see that there was a newer toilet called Abingdon, but still haven't found any examples of the earlier ones like mine. Thanks for the info!