Increasing boiler pressure, cracked exchanger?

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th@home

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Weil Mclain Cga gold 3 boiler has recently started to increase in pressure enough to release discharge (30psi). New HTP indirect water tank was installed in Feb 2017. Plumber who rebuilt the system in Feb did not think it was the tank but not sure how he tested. He also ruled out glycol overfill tank. After checking the system he believes the cast iron exchanger is cracked and leaking causing steam and pressure build up that is not released after boiler cools down. He heard a sound while the boiler was running to lead him to that conclusion. Weil Mclain suggests to demineralize the boiler as that may cause flashing to steam. Plumber wants to replace boiler. Thoughts? Should I get a second opinion. Spent 12K in Feb so not ready to spend another 10K for a replacemnt boiler. Much Thanks!
 

Dana

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The explanation of the overpressure as-stated makes absolutely no sense. If that's what the guy really said, his ability to understand and diagnose the problem, and even his competence to be working on hydronic heating systems is dubious at best.

A simple replacement boiler (or even simpler modulating condensing boiler) shouldn't be as expensive as $10K. Simple swap outs of like-for-like or like-for-similar should run about half that much.

If he's the one quoting you $10K for a simple replacement, that too is a hint that it's time to lose the guy. The CGa 3 is a $1500-1600 boiler, and a simple swap out is 1-2 day's labor for a competent installer + 1 helper. A competent installer can still make a decent living and pay the company overhead installing that for ~$5K, all-in.

A crack in the heat exchanger would cause the system to slowly lose water (and lose pressure after it cools), if the supply feeding to the auto-fill valve is shut off. If the shut-off is open and the auto-fill valve is leaking, it could be slowly overfilling the system over time, resulting in overpressure. That's the first thing to investigate, and YOU should do it, not the questionable plumber.

The potable heat exchanger inside the indirect is another suspect. Even though it's new, if it's leaking, it'll pressurize the system.

If the noise is/was flash boil, that is either caused by LOW system pressure (under 8 psi) or insufficient flow through the boiler from a failing pump or eroded pump impeller, or a closed valve or some other obstruction. Flash boil is indeed noisy, and could also cause temporary overpressure conditions if allowed to just bang away (it'll eventually sound like somebody is pounding on the pipes with hammerss.) But a higher system pressure from being over-filled, (or for any other reason) also suppresses flash boil.

How old is the boiler? Are you interested in something more efficient, or more right-sized for the heat load? (The CGa-3 would be 2x or more oversized for the load for most homes in SLC, but not ridiculously-scary oversized. A fuel-use based heat load calculation could tell you just how oversized it is.)

How old is the primary pump?

Are there multiple zones? If yes, are the zones separately pumped, or is it a one or two pump system with zone valves?
 

th@home

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Thanks for the reply. I was also skeptical of the reasoning that a leak would cause pressure increase. The boiler is actually a Cga-6. I have 5 zones with the indirect water heater as the primary zone. I also have a zone with a separate heat exchanger for a heated driveway that I activate manually since I can either heat the house or the driveway. I have an autofill glycol tank for make up fluid. Currently it is reading 30 psi the same as the boiler. I see that the boiler has released pressure during the day today. There is a shut off valve between the glycol makeup and the boiler that I can close. IBC indirect hot water tank was replaced in Feb. Boiler is probably 10 yo. System has two new pumps replaced in Feb. As mentioned I have multiple zones.

The boiler that plumber suggested is a wall mounted high eff with tankless water heater (HTP 199,000 btu). Would require replumbing from current location on cinder blocks. Seems that would defeat mt recently purchased hot water tank. He said this unit (HTP) was not available in Feb and it would have been a good replacement option. I would not be against a more efficient boiler and it would be nice to heat the driveway and house at the same time in winter.

Comment on flashing came from Weil Mclain online tech help. He suggested to demineralize boiler.

I have also noticed that the hot water is now very foamy and the faucet hot water temp is 140 even though the aquastat is set for 120.

How would I determine if indirect tank is leaking? Much thanks.
 

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Why glycol instead of water?

Unless the top floor baseboard is more than 65 vertical feet above the boiler, there is no reason to run it at 30psi, and running it there would usually require a different pressure relief valve than the one shipped with it. Most cast iron boiler can be operated safely at 50psi, but are shipped with 30psi relief valves. Most 2- story houses with the boiler in the basement do fine with the system pressure of 12-15psi at idle. Water pressure increases 0.433 psi for every vertical foot of height, so at 12 psi the piping at the top of the system 27-28' above the point where the pressure is measured (say, the gauge on the boiler) would be neutral relative to atmospheric pressure. The rule of thumb for setting the system pressure on taller houses is to measure the vertical distance in feet, multiply by 0.433, then add 3 psi to guarantee that the top of the system is still always at positive pressure even while pumping. The lower limit is about 8-10 psi at the boiler at which point flash boiling becomes a problem.

It's likely that your system is currently at 30psi because that's the pressure at which the relief valve opens up. Any time the boiler fires it increases the volume of the water, increasing the pressure, and the valve spits water.

So...

With power to to the system turned off and the boiler at idle, turn off the valves at the glycol tank or any potable supply to the heating system water, then bleed system water until the pressure reads 12-15 psi or so, and carefully note the reading. Turn the power on, but keep the isolating valves turned off. When the boiler fires on a water heating call it will probably come up a few psi, but it should fall back to the original pressure setting after an hour or three. If it spikes to 20+ psi in only a few minutes into the burn it's likely that the pre-charge on the expansion tank is way wrong, or the expansion tank is shot. (Tap the air-valve end of the expansion tank with something hard- it should ring rather than thud.)

If it seems to behave fine, no pressure spikes, no hammering banging noises from flash boil, keep observing it over several days to see if the pressure is creeping up. If it is increasing, it means water (or glycol) is slowly entering the system over time, and the possibilities are pretty much limited to seepage at the valves isolating the system from the glycol or potable fill points, or a leak in the heat exchanger inside the indirect.

With 146,000 BTU/hr of DOE output the CGa-6 is ridiculously oversized (for most) homes in the US with less than 8000 square feet of conditioned space. It's even more ridiculously oversized for the radiation on individual zone calls for a house with 4 heating zones + 1 hot water zone. To analyze what makes sense for any adjustments or boiler swaps do this bit of napkin math:

1: Measure the amount of baseboard on each zone by feet. The multiply the feet by 500 BTU/hr (which is roughly that amount of baseboard will emit with an entering water temp of 180F.) Add up the total feet of baseboard, and the total BTU.

Then repeat, using 200BTU/hr per foot, which is roughly the output at an EWT of 125F (the temperature it takes to hit the mid-90s for efficiency with a condensing boiler.)

2: Run a fuel use heat load calculation at your 99% outside design temperature. (For SLC that's +11F.) The short explanation of that is:

Take some mid to late winter gas bills (no shoulder season bills) noting the exact meter reading dates, and the amount of fuel use, and convert the fuel use into BTU, whether it's expressed in therms, CCF, or decatherms. Multiply the BTU by 0.83 (the steady state efficiency of a CGa-6), which is the net amount of heat that was delivered to the heating system (the rest went up the flue.)

Then find a local weatherstation on degreedays.net close to your house, and download a daily spreadsheet of base 65F degree-days that covers the days between meter readings, and add them up, first including the beginning meter reading date but not the last, then conversely. They should be pretty close, but average those two numbers, since you don't know exactly what time of day the meters are read.

Divide the net-BTU by the total degree-days, and divide that number by 24 to get a degree-hour constant.

The presumptive heating/cooling balance point is the heating degree-day base, which in this example is 65F. The 99% outside design temperature is +11F, so you have 65F-11F= 54F heating degrees. So, multiply your degree-hour constant by 54F, and that is your implied heat load. Since it doesn't separate out hot water use it's actually an upper bound, but in sunny SLC solar gains offset that error a bit.

The optimally sized cast iron boiler would have a DOE output no more than 1.4x that derived number, and even a 1.25x oversizing factor will cover your load at the temperature extremes well below the 99th percentile temperature bin. Do NOT upsize the boiler for domestic hot water, since you have an indirect tank, zoned priority.

A more detailed explanation of fuel use load calculations lives here.

If installing a modulating condensing boiler it's more complicated, but the smallest zone's baseboard will ideally be able to fully emit minimum modulated output of the boiler at condensing temperatures, which almost always rules out a 199K combi-boiler. The napkin math on that lives here.
 

th@home

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Why Glycol? Plumber said I needed glycol make up tank instead of water. I think my lack of knowledge has cost me dearly. As a consumer I think it's difficult to find a qualified hydronics company. I have not been impressed with companies that I have had service my system and now I will doubt any recommendation by Home Advisor! My original service call was for a failing indirect water heater. What I ended up with was a $12K overhaul of electronics, pumps and re-plumbing of the boiler so that it made "sense" to the plumber. Mind you the original system was over 25 years old and the controls were really a rats nest of wires and solenoids. I don't believe anyone has ever really calculated a heat load. Probably don't know how! Anyway this sounds like a great weekend project. FYI boiler is in garage of a 3 story house with appr 4500 sq ft. Cheers.
 

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I'll take a WAG that even with the boiler in the garage (where standby losses are truly lost) the fuel use calc is going to come in under 70,000 BTU/hr, and that the boiler is a bit over 2x oversized, which isn't totally ridiculous, but still not great. At 2x oversizing and larger the duty cycle is very low, and the idling losses kill the as-used AFUE.

AFUE efficiency is measured at a 1.7x oversizing factor, with the boiler inside of conditioned space, where the jacket losses are presumed to accrue to the heating of the house. Between the likely oversizing factor and location outside of conditioned space this thing won't be able to actually make it's AFUE numbers.

A fuel-use load calculation would already include the idling and distribution losses. The heat load of the actual house will be on the order of 15-2o% lower, but if the boiler is going to remain in the garage, the load the boiler has to support also includes those losses.
 

Jadnashua

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Depends on how large the driveway is whether it is oversized. Because plain water going outside into the driveway heating loop could easily freeze, glycol mixed system is necessary, although that does decrease the heat transfer efficiency of the liquid, but it won't freeze if the percentage of antifreeze is kept proper. They could have used a heat exchanger, and kept the boiler itself with plain water, and only antifreeze in the exterior loop, but that adds to the expense and complexity of the system.
 

Dana

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Somehow I missed the snowmelt zone, ergo the need for glycol. Sometimes the snowmelt zones are isolated from the main heating system water with a plate type heat exchanger to keep from using glycol in the boiler as jadnashua correctly points out. Glycol reduces the heat transfer efficiency inside the boiler a bit, but not enough to need bumping up the size of the boiler.

The duty cycle of the snowmelt loop is usually low, but it will skew the fuel-use based load calculation. It has to be a VERY large driveway to require upsizing the boiler though.
 

Jadnashua

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There's more than one way to design snow melt, based on your timeline requirements. This is from memory, and may be a little off. As you go down the list, you need closer spacing and more BTUs.
- slow, heavy snow may accumulate, but it is constantly melting
- medium, it can melt most snow rates as they fall, but not all
- high, there's enough heat available to keep all but a major blizzard or heavily blowing snow from being a problem

The last system is what you might find at say a hospital, or some place the liability of letting snow accumulate is worth the cost to keep it at bay. Many residential situations use the minimal, slower system. Because things are melting, you can still tend to get some traction, but would need to plow through what's there. Eventually, it all melts.
 

Dana

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In SLC the don't get pounded with a foot or more of 12-15% H20 maritime sludge, the way it often happens in New England, and it doesn't really pile up very often. Snowfalls in excess of 18" over a couple of days are somewhat rare, and when it does the H2O content is well under 10%. The total amount of water in a foot of SLC snowfall is typically worth 4-6" of the stuff we're used to seeing after a big nor'easter in New England, so the boiler load isn't as much per acre of driveway as it would be here. It's semi-arid, and the really big snowfalls only happen at higher elevation as the clouds are forced to rise crossing the Wasatch, which makes it a real skiing mecca!

I know a guy who works for the state in an office in SLC, but lives near the base of Alta (where is wife works). When it snows he often can't make it to work due to road closures, even though it may have snowed only a few inches or not all all in town. But he can usually make it from his house to the lifts on those days. :)
 
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