I'm Starting To Get My Softener Replaced.

[DownTheWell]

Recently purchased a house. Currently has a Culligan Mark 89 softener which appears to be about a 32K softener.
If I lose power, it runs backwards and is hit or miss it seems, to get it back up and running correctly.
I bought a hardness tester, tested the water from the well before any filters etc., and get anywhere between 85 - 100 grains per gallon. (85 - 100 drops before my sample turns blue.)
Called a plumber who got the same thing. 1 and 1/2 baths. 2 adults, 1 toddler, & 2 teenage boys there every other day.
I do the calculator and that says I need about 110,000 grain softener.
Based on that, I have the Mark 89 regenerating every night.
I did not see the entire results of the plumbers test, he tested for iron, hardness and sulfur.
I believe my sulfur was negligible, the iron is 4(?) or something, don't remember.
He quoted me:
(1)IMPS-1054 Impression Plus with air filteer & 1-clair Chlorination tank
(1)IMP 1354 Twin Impression Plus twin softener.
Total $7,000
Up to this point, I have purchased a UV light system which I haven't put in yet and, I was planning on buying a dual tank fleck 110,000 grain softener.
I realize I need to get test results in order to put them on here to get more detailed advice. I think I'll call another plumber with the express purpose of getting the basic results to me, hardness, iron, sulfur, in the short term.
Not really sure where to actually send a 1 liter bottle of my well water out to be tested.
The well tested fine for the basic house purchase test.
Any simple advice firstly, I'd appreciate.

 

[Bannerman]

Not really sure where to actually send a 1 liter bottle of my well water out to be tested.

Here's a link to a testing lab which is has been recommended numerous times on this site.
http://www.ntllabs.com/Merchant2/me...NTL&Product_Code=9001&Category_Code=Homeowner

With hardness as high as you are experiencing, a twin tank softener would be more efficient than a single tank unit.

With 3 people, your daily softening requirements are 18,000 grains/day (@ 100 gpg, 60 gallons/person and 0 iron (remove the iron prior to the softener)).

The 110K grain softener that you mentioned, will contain 3.5 cuft of resin. For salt efficiency with that size softener, regeneration should occur when no more than 84,000 grains has been utilized. That would provide a 4 day regeneration frequency with a single tank unit or 4.7 days with a twin tank unit. It is usually desirable to regenerate not more than 1X weekly so you may wish to consider a larger softener.

This online calculator http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php, recommends a 7.5 cuft for removing 100 gpg hardness for 3 people, assuming the iron is removed prior to the softener. Four people increases the recommendation to 10 cuft.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I bought a hardness tester, tested the water from the well before any filters etc., and get anywhere between 85 - 100 grains per gallon. (85 - 100 drops before my sample turns blue.)

If that is the Hach 5 B test, you should not use it for water more than 30 grains of hardness.

If you measure out 3 parts of distilled water and 1 part of water to test, test the mixture. Then multiply the result by 4.

I like kit90 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/

 

[DownTheWell]

The 110K grain softener that you mentioned, will contain 3.5 cuft of resin. For salt efficiency with that size softener, regeneration should occur when no more than 84,000 grains has been utilized. That would provide a 4 day regeneration frequency with a single tank unit or 4.7 days with a twin tank unit. It is usually desirable to regenerate not more than 1X weekly so you may wish to consider a larger softener.

This online calculator http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php, recommends a 7.5 cuft for removing 100 gpg hardness for 3 people, assuming the iron is removed prior to the softener. Four people increases the recommendation to 10 cuft.

Confuses me. Where could I buy that? A 110K grain softener with 7.5 cuft of resin? Really, I've just been looking online...

 

[DownTheWell]

1465MF-2 on here I guess. http://www.filters4h2o.com/Water Softener Systems.htm
Because, chances are that running the Mark 89 I have every day will eventually break it.
Now I guess, I'll need to figure out the iron.
One of the questions I have is that I understand that the water needs to be softened prior to the UV light so that the stuff in the water doesn't act as a shield for the biological elements in the water to hide behind. I just keep wondering whether the salt in the softened water doesn't act as a shield as well. Because the salt ions are so small? is that why the softened water doesn't block the UV light, or does it as well?

 

[Bannerman]

A 110K grain softener with 7.5 cuft of resin?

Each 1 cuft resin has approx 32,000 grains total capacity when first new. A 7.5 cuft softener would have 240K grains total capacity.

For the 110K unit you first mentioned, to regenerate all 110K would require 63 lbs of salt each regeneration. That equals only 1,746 grains/lb salt efficiency. It is more salt efficient to program a lower usable capacity, which is why I specified 84K usable capacity as that will require only 28 lbs salt per regeneration which is a much more efficient 3,000 grains/lb.

The iron quantity should be specified in the lab test results as well as the quantities for other minerals and contaminants. The lab test is the place to start as the quantities of the elements in the water, some of which are to be removed, will govern the treatment method(s) and the size of the equipment required.

Your current small softener is subject to additional wear due to the daily regeneration frequency. In addition, a daily regeneration schedule will utilize a substantial amount of water for regeneration whereas a larger softener will likely utilize more water per regen cycle, but since the regen cycle will probably be much less frequent, then total water used over time should be less. Whatever water and salt is utilized for regeneration, must also be appropriately disposed.

While salt (Sodium Chloride) is placed in the softener's brine tank, it is actually the sodium that is utilized for regenerating the resin capacity. Chloride as well as the removed hardness (calcium and magnesium) are flushed to the drain during regeneration along with any iron and manganese which may have also been removed by the softener.

To ensure the most complete exposure to the UV light, any particles that may interfere, need to be removed. Sodium ions, do not generally present an issue, unlike the calcium and magnesium ions which the sodium ions replace.

Why have you decided to install a UV light? Have you recognized a bacterial issue?

Edited to add: When talking capacity, I was referring to the capacity per tank. I see your linked twin tank model is specified as 7 cuft, but that is referring to the total of both tanks.

A twin tank softener normally is configured as two single tank softeners where the second tank is only placed on-line when then capacity in the first tank has been consumed.

 

[ditttohead]

Before you start buying and installing equipment, get a real water test done. Calcium and magnesium quickly scale up the quartz sleeve in a UV system. Sodium is highly soluble and does not typically create scale at even high levels. A twin alternating would be ideal for your application but the iron needs to be addressed first. Without a water test, companies can only guess what needs to be done. Since you are on your own well, you are now your own municipality. I would not recommend digging a hole in the ground, finding water, then bathing in it or drinking it... who really knows whats in it without adequate testing.

 

[DownTheWell]

Each 1 cuft resin has approx 32,000 grains total capacity when first new. A 7.5 cuft softener would have 240K grains total capacity.
For the 110K unit you first mentioned, to regenerate all 110K would require 63 lbs of salt each regeneration. That equals only 1,746 grains/lb salt efficiency. It is more salt efficient to program a lower usable capacity, which is why I specified 84K usable capacity as that will require only 28 lbs salt per regeneration which is a much more efficient 3,000 grains/lb.
The iron quantity should be specified in the lab test results as well as the quantities for other minerals and contaminants. The lab test is the place to start as the quantities of the elements in the water, some of which are to be removed, will govern the treatment method(s) and the size of the equipment required.
Your current small softener is subject to additional wear due to the daily regeneration frequency. In addition, a daily regeneration schedule will utilize a substantial amount of water for regeneration whereas a larger softener will likely utilize more water per regen cycle, but since the regen cycle will probably be much less frequent, then total water used over time should be less. Whatever water and salt is utilized for regeneration, must also be appropriately disposed.
While salt (Sodium Chloride) is placed in the softener's brine tank, it is actually the sodium that is utilized for regenerating the resin capacity. Chloride as well as the removed hardness (calcium and magnesium) are flushed to the drain during regeneration along with any iron and manganese which may have also been removed by the softener.
To ensure the most complete exposure to the UV light, any particles that may interfere, need to be removed. Sodium ions, do not generally present an issue, unlike the calcium and magnesium ions which the sodium ions replace.
Why have you decided to install a UV light? Have you recognized a bacterial issue?
Edited to add: When talking capacity, I was referring to the capacity per tank. I see your linked twin tank model is specified as 7 cuft, but that is referring to the total of both tanks.
A twin tank softener normally is configured as two single tank softeners where the second tank is only placed on-line when then capacity in the first tank has been consumed.

My 32k softener is still going. Haven't ordered a test yet. I bought the UV light because, why not? I bought it to kill microbes, if any.
I was really hoping somebody could tell me more about the models of the equipment I ordered. I have a brochure but I didn't seem to find to much in the way of reviews.
(1)IMPS-1054 Impression Plus with air filteer & 1-clair Chlorination tank
(1)IMP 1354 Twin Impression Plus twin softener.
I will get the water test ordered and then post on here what I get.
Thanks

 

[DownTheWell]

If that is the Hach 5 B test, you should not use it for water more than 30 grains of hardness.

If you measure out 3 parts of distilled water and 1 part of water to test, test the mixture. Then multiply the result by 4.

I like kit90 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/

Well, overkill I suppose but, I ordered the 360 test.

 

[Reach4]

Here are a few write-ups regarding taking the bacterial sample:

http://www.ewashtenaw.org/governmen...l_health/wells_septic/eh_bacteriatesting.html
http://extension.psu.edu/natural-re...r-testing/testing/testing-your-drinking-water
http://www.ugra.org/pdfs/SamplingHandout.pdf
http://www.anra.org/divisions/water...nking_Water_Samples_for_Coliform_Analysis.pdf

Like life insurance, lets hope you wasted your money. Seriously, negative tests are not a waste. For a deep well, those extra things are not often present... Better overkill than underkill.

 

[Bannerman]

I was really hoping somebody could tell me more about the models of the equipment I ordered.

From your statement, it appears you already purchased equipment, even though your water conditions and the appropriate treatment methods, have yet to be established.

 

[ditttohead]

Semi proprietary equipment but fortunately it is of a high quality build so you should do just fine. Many parts are interchangeable, thus the "semi".
The air pocket design works, but it can be a bit difficult. In some applications it causes a lot of airy water in the house. Not that this is a bad thing, the airy spurts etc. are much easier to deal with than iron, odors etc. You should have waited to get the water report before buying water treatment equipment.

 

[DownTheWell]

Semi proprietary equipment but fortunately it is of a high quality build so you should do just fine. Many parts are interchangeable, thus the "semi".
The air pocket design works, but it can be a bit difficult. In some applications it causes a lot of airy water in the house. Not that this is a bad thing, the airy spurts etc. are much easier to deal with than iron, odors etc. You should have waited to get the water report before buying water treatment equipment.

I mis-typed. Haven't ordered anything yet. That should've been "equipment I was quoted". I got the 360 test but haven't had a chance to do it yet. Got it the night before I traveled.

 

[DownTheWell]

Here are a few write-ups regarding taking the bacterial sample:

http://www.ewashtenaw.org/governmen...l_health/wells_septic/eh_bacteriatesting.html
http://extension.psu.edu/natural-re...r-testing/testing/testing-your-drinking-water
http://www.ugra.org/pdfs/SamplingHandout.pdf
http://www.anra.org/divisions/water...nking_Water_Samples_for_Coliform_Analysis.pdf

Like life insurance, lets hope you wasted your money. Seriously, negative tests are not a waste. For a deep well, those extra things are not often present... Better overkill than underkill.

I'm surrounded by farm fields and so I wanted to see "everything" including some other chemical concerns I have. Figure I'd just start with that test.

 

[DownTheWell]

I got the test results back. I went through and took out all the results that were "None found (acceptable result)" and am left with this:



Test Result Units
Boron, total 0.22 mg/L
Calcium, total 486 mg/L
Iron, total 0.54 mg/L
Magnesium, total 39.8 mg/L
Manganese, total 0.015 mg/L
Potassium, total 2.4 mg/L
Sodium, total 25.6 mg/L
Strontium, total 12.8 mg/L
Sulfur, total, by ICP 357 mg/L
Bacteria, total coliform Positive
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 202 mg/L
Bicarbonate (as CaCO3) 201 mg/L
Bromide 0.15 mg/L
Carbonate (as CaCO3) 0.53 mg/L
Chloride 64.2 mg/L
Color 10 color units
Conductivity 2110 micromhos/cm
Corrosivity, Langelier Index 0.9 S.U.
Corrosivity, Ryznar Index 5.6 S.U.
Flouride 0.17 m
Hardness 1380 mg/L
Hardness (gpg) 80.6 grains/gallon
PH 7.5 S.U.
Salinity 1.07 ppt
Silica 8.4 mg/L
Sodium ads. Ratio, adjusted 0.47
Sodium absorption ratio 0.3
Sulfate 1080 mg/L
Turbidity 8.48 NTU
Tot. diss. solids, estimated 1900 NTU
TOC, low level 1 mg/L

 

[Reach4]

The positive coliform could be from not sterilizing your faucet before drawing your sample.

Do you have a H2S (sulfur compound) smell? You could deal with that and the iron and manganese best with a backwashing filter made to handle that. That will leave the softener to just do what it does best -- softening the water. At 81 grains, you have very hard water, and you will still need a big softener... probably two softening tanks.

I would think a backwashing filter with Katalox Light media (looks like a softener), a Pentek Big Blue 20x4.5 cartridge filter, and a softener of an appropriate size.

Getting the water test done was good.

Your pH is nice.

 

[DownTheWell]

I'm sure I can get something and install it but I don't have a sense for what's a good system or just an overpriced one.
My plumbers quote of--- (1)IMPS-1054 Impression Plus with air filteer & 1-clair Chlorination tank and (1)IMP 1354 Twin Impression Plus twin softener--- I'm not sure what that really is.
Do 'you' know whether that quoted softener is a dual tank system? Is the softener demand-based? Is the "air filter & 1-clair Chlorination tank" a Katalox system?
I am going to have to buy something, the softener I have that I had regenerating every day has now broken. It's timer doesn't spin at all. I manually trip it and then let it run for an hour or so, then turn it off again.
I think id prefer a Katalox system but, the iron isn't my main problem at this point.

 

[DownTheWell]

I replaced the softener with a 9100sxt, 96,000 grain dual tank.
I used the water through the first tank until it cycled, used the water through the second tank until it cycled.
I can tell that the water now though, isn't as soft as the first two times, having the 2 tanks brand new.
So, I figured I have something configured wrong with it.
This is how I have it set:
DF GAL
VT dt 16 ????valve type - do I have this right?
CT F1 Meter immediate
NT 2 There are dual tanks
TS U2 Unit 2 is currently in service
C 96 x 1000 ??? this would be the 96,000, correct?
H 85 I put it at 85 hardness
RS SF reserve is Safety as %
SF 10 I have it at 10%
DO 14 Override at 14 days
RT 2:00 ???Not sure what this is.
BW 10 Backwash time is 10 minutes
BD 60 Brine draw is 60 minutes
RR 10 Rapid rinse is 10 minutes
BF 29 ***
FM t0.7 3/4" turbine
The ***, the manual I have had this wrong, showed the settings in the order to enter them but when it got to this point it wasn't BF, it showed BD/12 so, being unsure I left it at 12.
It was like that the first 2 regeneration cycles, then I could tell the water was now no longer super soft, I went through the manual again, decided this was a typo and changed the BF on my system from 12 to 29.
Previous to my doing that, there was very little water in the Brine tank. After making the change, I did a manual regeneration. I still do not feel that the water is as soft as the first two times I used the tanks up, when each was new.
Now, the brine tank fills up with water to about an inch over the float, the water in the brine tank outside of the float tube is about 4" lower.

 

[Bannerman]

9100sxt, 96,000 grain dual tank.

Is that 96K grains per tank or the total for both tanks?

BF 29 ***

What is the BLFC rate? That is the refill rate for the brine tank. Should be specified on a label near the brine fitting. The 29 minutes currently set X the BLFC rate = the amount of water entering the brine tank

 

[Reach4]

VT dt 16 ????valve type - do I have this right?

I think that is dF1b

C 96 x 1000 ??? this would be the 96,000, correct?

Not if you want salt efficiency.

IF your BLFC is 0.5 I would use the following. It may not be optimum, but its what I currently think. Let me know if you find mistakes.

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
DLFC = 5 Drain (backwash and RR rate GPM)
cubic ft resin = 3 ; ft3 resin (each tank)
Raw hardness = 85 ; including any compensation
People = 2 ; Does not matter for settings, just forecast
Estimated gal/day = 120 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 5.1 ; Computed days with reserve
Fleck 9100SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = FI ; Meter Immediate regen trigger
NT = 2 ; Number of tanks
C = 60.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains per tank
H = 85 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 0 ; can use 0 with CT=FI
DO = 28 ; Day Override (shorter with iron)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time DOES NOT MATTER since CT=FI
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 12 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = usually t0.7 ; flow meter,see https://goo.gl/UbWJWW


(note:edited to correct two errors identifed by Bannerman)