I'd appreciate opinions on Pex sizing, type, and fittings and crimp rings material and type

[MG70]

I was wondering if anyone with plumbing experience could comment on Pex pipe sizing and recommend brands of Pex B tube and fittings, crimp rings, etc. for a complete re-pipe that I'm planning for my "new" house, a typical shoe box-shaped 1970s raised rancher, approx. 1900sqft (950X2 levels), 3BD/2BA (originally 1 bath) house with a basement. I'm planning to remove the copper and re-do the plumbing, with the exception of the main drain which is located in the rear basement wall and leads to a septic system out back. The house is on a well with a 6-ish steel casing, submersible pump of unknown age and capacity, a 2010-dated 33.4 gallon Flexcon pressure tank, and on inspection produced 5 gals/min at the highest point, the shower head, after running for 30 minutes following 2+ years of being turned off (and all fixtures are very old). Water sample was also collected at the bathroom and quality results were poor (total coliform, chloride, and hardness was 874 which sounds very high). At the time of inspection the pressure gauge was broken and stuck at 40psi (IIRC).

Before shocking the well, I'm planning to cap flow to everything that comes after the pressure tank, except for an outdoor bib where I can connect a hose to recirculate water back to the well during disinfection. After that, I plan to repipe a section going from the pressure tank to a bathroom, including water supply to a new water heater, and existing toilet, sink, and shower that will be used during the remodel (not the same where water sample was collected, but pipes could be infected/dirty there too).

The house will be used by my wife and I, and the occasional visitor. I'm thinking of using Pex B due to cost, the fact that I haven't heard of Pex B pipe failing under normal conditions, water pressure seems fine even with the old equipment in place, and that there are Lowes and Home Depot stores within 30 minutes of the property. With that said, I have not decided on the brand of pipe, nor type and brand of fittings, but ideally it would be something reliable, durable, and that I could easily find. I don't mind having to use extra fittings as opposed to bending the pipe (I've soldered copper many times and never owned a pipe bender) and I have no preference as to whether fittings are plastic or metal. Lastly, I'm very detail oriented and mechanically inclined.


Current Plumbing:

1 5/16" OD (I don't know ID) black poly pipe from well going into basement

1 1/8" OD copper (which I believe is 1" type K) from black poly pipe to pressure tank, passing through a Square D 40/60 switch (dated 2010).

7/8" OD copper (which I believe is 3/4" type L) from Pressure tank to Water heater, with Two 5/8" OD copper (which I believe are 1/2" type L) branches with shut-offs going to outside hose bibs.

7/8" OD copper (which I believe is 3/4" type L) out of water heater, to I believe below the various hot water 1/2" type L branches.


I assume it's safe for me to plan on using Pex 3/4" Trunk and 1/2" Branches, but I'm not sure how best to transition from the black poly pipe coming from the well into Pex, I don't even know if barbed brass bases for connecting the pump switch exist, or if I should leave copper and transition into Pex after leaving the pressure tank. I'm also going to try to clean up the installation which looks messy to me.


Thanks in advance for any assistance with this and I hope everyone is having a safe week!

 

[Reach4]

Poly pipe is going to be 1 inch SIDR pipe. That fits the barbs. It is usually considered better to stagger the gears on the worm gear clamps, but if there is no leak, I would leave those clamps as they are.

It is usually best to not have an above-ground check valve with a submersible pump. Is the nipple of the pressure switch screwed into a check valve, or is that just a manifold?

It is better to have the pressure switch closer to the input to the pressure tank. If the pump turns off prematurely, look to that as a cause. If no problem, no problem.

If you replace some 3/4 inch copper with PEX, you might upsize that to 1 inch until you split the flow for cold and hot.

I always thought the stainless steel clamps would be good, but more pros seem to like the copper crimp rings better. If you have not worked with PEX before, it is probably stiffer than you imagine. PEX should be supported every 32 inches horizontally. EP (engineered plastic) fittings are better if your water is acidic. Otherwise expect brass to have a little bigger ID.

Are you putting in a water softener?

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing write-up.

 

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[MG70]

Thank you for the reply, the correct terminology, and the link to the sanitizing write-up which I will need as soon as I straighten the bent rim of the well casing, determine its true diameter, and buy a decent cap.

Firstly, I don't know whether the pump switch is screwed into a back-flow valve or a manifold but I will try to link a better photo. I don't recall seeing any arrows pointing to the direction of the water flow on that brass piece.

So, using your info, I will plan to cut back the SIDR pipe where it is threaded and install a 1" Pex B barbed adapter to run 1" Pex to a "T fitting" right near the entrance to the Pressure Tank (correction, Not Pump, sorry) onto which I'll screw in a Pressure Gauge, hose bib, Pressure relief valve, and lastly a ball valve shutoff.

I've read that SIDR pipe needs to be heated in order to attach fittings.

From the water Shutoff leaving the Pressure tank I'll run a 1" line all the way to the new water Heater, and on the way create 1/2" branches for 2-3 Outside hose bibs (with shutoffs) and eventually splice in 1/2" branches up to the kitchen sink, dishwasher, and reverse osmosis system with tap. The old water Heater was underneath the bathrooms and that's where I'll install the new one in order to supply hot water faster. I also don't have any major plans for the basement at this time; the main floor will be set up to accommodate all the necessary amenities, including laundry room. Maybe in the future I'll install a full or half bath in the basement by installing a macerating pump, but it's an old pre-fab and the ceiling is already low, and the wife and I don't need more than one bathroom each; it would just be a nice convenience for when someone is in the basement.

So back to the plumbing, above the Water heater, I'll downsize the Cold trunk to 3/4" and leaving the Water heater will also be a 3/4" Hot trunk.

Q: Is there a standard length of copper pipe used between Pex and Water Heater Outlet to isolate the heat so as to not damage the Pex? Is it required on just the hot Outlet or the cold Inlet as well?



I'm still on the fence about a water softener for the following reasons:

1. The water sample was taken from an old bathroom, with old fixtures and I assume 1975 copper pipes, and from a dirty well with a loose cap and all sorts of webs and stuff under the cap. The water heater is 20-something years old and there was no water treatment at all in the house. I don't know if sediment in old pipes contributes to Hardness levels in samples, but I'm seriously hoping that after I disinfect the well, re-pipe, and install everything new, that I'll get better results, including for water hardness. I don't know; I have no experience with this type of stuff.

2. The closest neighbor, we're both on 1 acre lots, has no water treatment or filtration, and says that other than taste, they drink bottled water, he has had no problems with the water, but did flush "a sand snake" out of his heater after buying the house 4-5 years ago. From personal experience, I've only met a handful of people who flushed their water heaters with any regularity, so no one knows how long it took for that snake to build up in his heater.

3. Back in '21 or '22 I bought a 50 gal Rheem hybrid (heat pump) water heater that is still in the box and have read that due to the residual salt from water softeners, some manufacturers do not recommend water softeners and/or recommend that their heaters be flushed in shorter intervals. Although I can't find my notes, I'd have to cycle quite a bit of salt through something like an Aquasure 70K grain system in order to minimize the hardness level detected in my water on the one test that was performed. I'd have no trouble flushing the water heater, nor finding a place for a water softener to drain, since there are two very convenient sump pits near where all the plumbing will take place. With that said, the salty discharge would run into a sump pit, down a pipe leading to a ditch which runs along the road in front of the house and I have no idea how it would affect the grass along the ditch, including downstream, along my neighbors properties. I do my best to be a good neighbor.

4. I've never lived with hard water and thought that in the worst case scenario, I'd give it a shot, and if I didn't like it, I could add a water softener later. Other than the water heater, the only other appliances I can think of that could be damaged by hard water, are the dish washer and the clothes washer and the models I tend to buy are basic ones that are much cheaper to replace than the energy efficient water heater I bought.


The pics show what the switch is screwed into, and a better view of where the current system is set up.

I'm thinking of possibly installing the pressure pump, and if needed the water softener (Not conditioner as previously stated, sorry), along the Left wall in the second pic.



As always, opinions from those with experience are always welcomed!

 

[Reach4]

So, using your info, I will plan to cut back the SIDR pipe where it is threaded and install a 1" Pex B barbed adapter to run 1" Pex to a "T fitting" right near the entrance to the Pressure Pump, onto which I'll screw in a Pressure Gauge, hose bib, Pressure relief valve, and lastly a ball valve shutoff.

Why? Do you mean the entrance to the pressure tank, rather than pressure pump? If you are not getting symptoms, I don't think I would make a change in that regard. Are you motivated to increase pipe ID? If no symptoms, I would leave things until you replace the pressure tank some day.

It would be very unusual to need a pressure pump if the well pump is a submersible pump. Usually, if you want more pressure, you turn up the pressure switch.

Regardless, I see no reason to cut back the SIDR pipe.

did flush "a sand snake" out of his heater

I have not seen that term. I am guessing that when you opened the drain valve, you initially got a solid flow of sediment that was mostly sand. I suggest a cartridge filter, perhaps with a 4.5 inch x 20 inch cartridge. A bypass system is useful, and a pressure gauge after the filter can be useful to compare to the pressure gauge at the pressure tank, to see how much backpressure you are getting as the cartridge gets loaded.

Back in '21 or '22 I bought a 50 gal Rheem hybrid (heat pump) water heater that is still in the box and have read that due to the residual salt from water softeners, some manufacturers do not recommend water softeners and/or recommend that their heaters be flushed in shorter intervals. Although I can't find my notes, I'd have to cycle quite a bit of salt through something like an Aquasure 70K grain system in order to minimize the hardness level detected in my water on the one test that was performed.

You would do well to get a lab water test for hardness, iron, manganese, arsenic, pH, and maybe some more things. Do you have data from a water test that includes at least hardness?

I have not seen directions for a water heater that warns against softening water. I haven't been looking but I would think I would have read something to that effect before. I have seen warranty info for one tankless brand that says the warranty is void if you run more than 7 grains (I think it was) of hardness.

Also, the membrane for a reverse osmosis unit lasts longer if fed with softened water.

I've never lived with hard water and thought that in the worst case scenario, I'd give it a shot, and if I didn't like it, I could add a water softener later. Other than the water heater, the only other appliances I can think of that could be damaged by hard water, are the dish washer and the clothes washer and the models I tend to buy are basic ones that are much cheaper to replace than the energy efficient water heater I bought.

The main advantage to softened water is to make your bath and shower water nice. But it also keeps deposits from happening in your water heater. It also removes iron, if you don't have too much, and that makes the water taste better.

 

[MG70]

My apologies for having written the wrong terms. I've corrected to say "pressure tank" and "water softener."

The sand snake comment was my from neighbor, to which I understood as being a good amount of sand like sediment coming out in the shape of the hose used to flush his old water heater. Again, my assumptions.

Excellent suggestion for leaving the plumbing of the pressure tank alone until it needs to be replaced. From my research, it seems that "T" fitting has to be sized for the tank clearance or access to the threads where it screws into, so if I change something now there's a good chance it won't work with the next pressure tank, and the current one is from 2010.

I'll plan on testing the pressure tank to see whether it contains the proper amount of air and to see whether it's leaking or holding water.

I wrote I'd cut back the SIDR (black poly) pipe, thinking that if I removed the current, I assume threaded, copper adapter, that there was a better chance of the Pex adapter sealing properly with the SIDR. Given the age of the house, I just assumed I'd replace all copper with Pex to "zero the clock" on everything.

On the other hand, I was also thinking of using the thicker 1/2" copper to pipe in shower valves and heads and only connect the Pex under the floor joists, because I'm way more familiar with copper and felt it would be more leak-proof in a harder to reach (and fix) area; if that makes sense.



Some of the water test results:


Bacteria, Total Coliform >200 cfu/100ml

Bacteria E. Coli <1.0 cfu/100ml

Hardness: 874 mg/L

Chloride 595 mg/L

Fluoride <0.20

Nitrate 3.33 mg/L

Nitride <0.20 mg/L

Orthophosphate <0.20 mg/L

Sulfate 9.02 mg/L

Iron 0.58 mg/L

Ph 7.35 SU

Turbidity 8.35 NTUs



Thanks again for the feedback. I guess I need to rethink the water softener.


I hope you have a good evening!

 

[Reach4]

Hardness: 874 mg/L

Yes, significantly hard at about 51 grains

Iron 0.58 mg/L

Significant-- more than mine. If you get a softener, and do not have a backwashing iron filter in front of it, you will want to do some extra treatment, which will not be all that hard.