Ice machine and dishwasher drain plumbing

[bmrowe]

We just did some remodeling and we've added an ice machine with a pump next to the dishwasher. The ice machine pump tied in right above the p trap under the sink. However, this causes the p-trap to be constantly full of cold water, which then causes condensation and dripping into the sink cabinet.

The plumbers came by and their solution was to swap the ice machine tie-in with the dishwasher tie-in (which is when I realized that they had originally installed the dishwasher after the trap). I'm now concerned that sewer gas will be leaking into the ice machine since it's after the trap, but the plumbers said that since both the ice machine and dishwasher have pumps with check valves, that it wasn't a problem.

Advice?

 

[bmrowe]

And a picture:

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

We just did some remodeling and we've added an ice machine with a pump next to the dishwasher. The ice machine pump tied in right above the p trap under the sink. However, this causes the p-trap to be constantly full of cold water, which then causes condensation. Any recommended solutions?

I would put a shallow plastic tray to catch the dripping, but you could insulate around the p-trap instead.

The plumbers came by and they swapped the ice machine tie-in with the dishwasher tie-in (which was after the trap). I'm now concerned that sewer gas will be leaking into the ice machine since it's after the trap, but the plumbers said that since both the ice machine and dishwasher have pumps with check valves, that it wasn't a problem.

I agree with you, at least if you want to follow the rules.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Insulate the trap and the exposed drain as far as you can. Cold water inside is condensing water from the humid air around it. By insulating the trap, you are creating a Vapor Barrier that keeps the warm moist air from contacting the cold surface.

 

[bmrowe]

Thanks y'all. Any recommended product for insulation? Is there any truth to the 'since the ice machine has a check valve, it doesn't need to be above the p-trap'?

 

[Mr tee]

I have always hooked that type of equipment to the drain indirectly by means of an air gap.
UPC 801.2.3

Section 801.2.3 Food and Beverage Handling Establishments. Food preparation sinks, steam kettles, potato peelers, ice cream dipper wells, and similar equipment shall be indirectly connected discharged into the drainage system by means of an airgap. Bins, sinks, and other equipment having drainage connections and used for storage of unpackaged ice use for human ingestion, or used in direct contact with ready-to-eat food, shall be indirectly connected discharged into the drainage system by means of an airgap. Multiple compartment food preparation sinks shall have all compartments utilized for a common purpose. All compartments of a multiple-compartment food preparation sink shall be discharged into the drainage system by means of an airgap. Each indirect waste pipe from food-handling fixtures or equipment shall be separately piped to the indirect waste receptor and shall not combine with other indirect waste pipes. The piping from the equipment to the receptor shall not be smaller than the drain outlet on the unit, and it shall not be smaller than one-half (1/2) inch (15 mm).

 

[Jeff H Young]

bmrowe, no that's not legal in California nothing to do with check valves and everything to do with plumbing code.
DW needs airgap , ice maker on wrong side of ptrap and likely needs air gap

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I think we would have to see how the waste is conveyed from the machine. That is an important consideration. You don't want dirty water to somehow back up into your ice bin.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I think we would have to see how the waste is conveyed from the machine. That is an important consideration. You don't want dirty water to somehow back up into your ice bin.

in either case he is on the wrong side of trap

 

[Mr tee]

Perhaps the melt could be pumped to a dishwasher air gap mounted on the sink and then drain by gravity to a branch tailpiece above the trap.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Perhaps the melt could be pumped to a dishwasher air gap mounted on the sink and then drain by gravity to a branch t

yes I agree evidently the trap was sweating so his "plumber " thought it be a good idea to run it without a trap or airgap. plumber I think got it wrong

 

[hj]

The pump IS an "effective" trap and the IM drains into the pump through an "open"connection, so there is no connection between the drain and the ice bin.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Never researched an Ice machine hook up but would not hook it up like that unless called for in the machine spec
just looked up a Scotsman ice machine it calls for an airgap where required and shows it being trapped. so while I don't argue a machine exists that might not require a hook up similar to a dishwasher clearly some machines do need to be hooked up to a trapped line and be protected with an air gap in UPC code areas.

 

[Mr tee]

I see, the pump is a trap and the "open" connection is an air gap. Interesting. I have never installed that type of unit.

 

[bmrowe]

The manual for this unit doesn't give much detail. This is all it says under the drain pump directions:

• Drain pump discharge line must terminate at an open site drain.

Based on that, I've assumed it can't tie in like it is. However another part of the manual states:

• The ice maker can be ordered with or without a drain pump. Models without a pump will drain water by gravity.
• A drain must be installed
• The drain and inlet water tubes must be plumbed before connection to the ice maker. For the gravity drain, horizontal drain lines must have a 1/4" (6) per 12" (305) fall. An air gap will likely be required between the unit and drain. A stand pipe with a trap below is acceptable for the drain.

So I'm confused. I've also read what HJ brought up, that the pump itself acts as a trap and air gap. Here is the diagram that shows a bit of the internal plumbing:

 

[John Gayewski]

"open site drain" means air gap.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I havent heard that anything being pumped means it can be tyed into a drain so i guess dishwashers and washing machines dont need traps or vents ? and an A/C condesate pump could just tap into a drainline with out trap or vent ? The Ice machine may or maynot need an airgap depending on how its desighned or code. but i dont see plumbing on the wrong side of the trap as an option.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

So I'm confused. I've also read what HJ brought up, that the pump itself acts as a trap and air gap. Here is the diagram that shows a bit of the internal plumbing:

A sump and pump that have a check valve, create their own trap. Sewer gas cannot travel out of that sealed environment so that its downstream connection to the drain doesn't need to be trapped. That doesn't preclude the air gap requirement. So long as the Bin that holds the Ice you presumably will put in your mouth has a physical separation from the pump inlet with clear air space or some other form of acceptable air gap that prevents creepy crawlys from getting into your ice bin.. then its properly air gapped.

I would guess that most of us in the trades are used to only installing commercial ice machines in commercial kitchen which only drain via gravity so some of the advice is skewed with that experience. Interesting to see this machine.

 

[Jeff H Young]

A sump and pump that have a check valve, create their own trap. Sewer gas cannot travel out of that sealed environment so that its downstream connection to the drain doesn't need to be trapped. That doesn't preclude the air gap requirement. So long as the Bin that holds the Ice you presumably will put in your mouth has a physical separation from the pump inlet with clear air space or some other form of acceptable air gap that prevents creepy crawlys from getting into your ice bin.. then its properly air gapped.

I would guess that most of us in the trades are used to only installing commercial ice machines in commercial kitchen which only drain via gravity so some of the advice is skewed with that experience. Interesting to see this machine.[/QUOTE
a good way of explaining it tuttles,
might be legal Id have to research it looks hack to me and no plan to try it out . but if indeed legal then go for it

 

[bmrowe]

I called the ice machine manufacturer directly and talked to their support team. They were very clear, and I wish they'd update the manual.

An air gap is required when using either a gravity drain or a drain pump. The pump itself is not an effective air gap to prevent contamination of the ice box. So that solves it.

I'd rather not have the counter mounted air gap - is there any good solution for an under counter air gap with the plumbing you see in the picture in the first post?