I thought this would be relatively easy...

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Ken_in_Mass

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I'm replacing my fiberglass shower. I figured I'd replace the 20+ year old valve with a new system with a diverter and hand held unit. When I took the old shower out, I found some odd looking plumbing.

I took a couple of pictures to help explain. Basically there are two lines running up through the wall. The work that is there taps into the two lines high up and brings them back down to the shower valve. The closeup picture shows that this places the valve behind the supply lines. Right now the line to the shower just angles up until its a reasonable distance from the back of the wall.

The problem is that the diverter has an inlet that is 1 1/4" from the back wall. Because the valve is pushed back behind the supply lines the clearance is only about 3/4" or less.

It seems to me I have two options. The first would be to leave the valve sitting where it is, and bend the shower line in a shallow S that would bring it forward from the back wall and allow the diverter valve to be connected.

The other option would be to move the valve a little to the left and just connect it to the two supply lines with T connections right at the valve. I don't understand why it wasn't done that way in the first place.

So the questions are which of those two options are better, or is there other ways to handle this. The new valve going in is the exact same body as this one.

I hope I explained myself well enough... I still need to go and figure out if the valve being set back like this will work with the new shower.

Thanks for any advice... including 'This is beyond a DIYer, go get a plumber.'
 

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Kingsotall

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It is strange that the tee's are so far up then cam back down. I was wondering if the valve was loose when it was a working shower. There isn't any blocking holding it securely in place just the cold line that it is behind.
 

Ken_in_Mass

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When it was working, the valve was fairly well attached to the fiberglass... which is to say, yes if you pushed on the controller it would sway in and out with the fiberglass.

In thinking about this last night, it occurred to me that maybe the fiberglass shower unit had a precut hole for the valve, and that was his way of moving the lines an inch to the right.

The other problem that is not obvious from the pictures is that the water lines running all the way up are way forward in the wall. In fact they extend beyond the 2x4's at the top. I'm going to face the studs in the wall with furring strips to move the wall out a bit.

I need to figure out what my wall thickness with the furring strips and wallboard and tile is going to be to see if that dictates one approach or the other.

I'm glad to hear someone else say that it looks weird... I was thinking there was some obscure code reason for doing it that way.

On another note, this is going to be my first time sweating pipes. I bought extra (I think) pipe and connectors and I figured I'd practice a bit before turning off the water to the house. Is there a thread around here with tricks and tips on how to do it, and check that you've done a good job. I've done a lot of electrical soldering and I've read about the technique, but I understand there is a big difference between book knowing and experienced. (the reason I want to practice).

Thanks
 

Kingsotall

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I heard something about bending pipes, too earlier in the thread. That's what 45's were invented for. There is a steep learning curve, IMHO, to sweating pipe. Well to everything in plumbing. But once you get it it'll be like riding a bike.
 

TedL

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I didn't see your statement of the problem you're trying to solve. I'm guessing you're trying to say it's set too deep into the stud bay, and so won't come out far enough to reach the finished wall line.
 

Jadnashua

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The biggest things in plumbing soldering are similar to that for good electrical soldering with the exception that you use a different kind of solder and flux (well, things are bigger, too!).

Both the pipe and the fitting must be cleaned - avoid touching them once cleaned. Put flux on both pieces. Heat the fitting, not the pipe. Depending on the size of hte pipe and your torch, it often works best if you move the torch around to more evenly heat the fiting. Don't put the solder in the flame, put it on the opposite side of the fitting. The heat will draw it around. Don't move things around until the solder solidifies and wipe the connection to remove the excess solder and flux. A few practice joints, if you're comfortable soldering other things and you'll have the idea. A valve body can act like a really big heat sink, and will take a lot of heat to make a connection. It's best to remove the cartridge of a faucet before you solder on it.

If there's ANY moisture in the pipe, you won't be able to solder it, and if there's even just a little bit, steam may blow a channel through the soldered joint, creating a leak path. You want an opening in the pipe to let the heated air escape and not try to get out of the new joint. Often not a problem until you get to the last joint...thus, the reason to keep the valve open.

Oh, and don't burn the house down in the process! A heat shield, spray water bottle, and maybe a fire extinguisher may not be needed, but you don't want to have to go looking for them if you actually do.
 

Cacher_Chick

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It looks to me like there is good access. I would cut the entire section out and run new pipe within that stud bay. Use 45's to get the pipe running where you want it.
 

Cacher_Chick

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On second thought-- I just noted the insulation.... it that an outside wall that might freeze? If so that would explain running the pipes inwards so the insulation can be behind.
 

Ken_in_Mass

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Wow... thanks for all the replies. I am indeed tossing out the old valve and putting in a new one, but its the same model so it has the same dimensions. But the old installation is set too far back for the new shower. They did some hokey stuff in the original installation that I'm trying to fix.

Right now my plan is to cut out the Tees at the top and just reconnect them, then install Tees on the main lines further down with the valve between them.

I'm putting furring strips horizontally on the wall both to straighten it out for tiling, and also because the pipes and drain extend into the shower area beyond the studs at the top of the wall.

Oh, and its not an outside wall, the insulation was purely for sound deadening. A fiberglass shower acts a lot like a drumhead under certain circumstances.

Thanks a lot for the sweating tips... in particular the heating the fitting and the idea of removing the guts of the valve. It was expensive enough that its worth protecting. Nothing in the insufficient installation instructions mentions that.

I read about a trick of using white bread to keep drips away while you sweat the pipes. Is that useful, should I push a couple of wads up the pipes above where the work is going.

One further question (at least for now). I'm also installing a diverter and hand shower connection. All of those connections are threaded, not sweated. That's because they never need to sustain the full water pressure, right? In any case, I have some teflon tape. Is that OK to use, or should I use pipe dope, or both? This is pretty much like replacing a shower head or threaded pipe, but behind the wall I want to make sure its permanent.

Thanks again all of you for all the help. Of all my DIYing adventures this plumbing is the most daunting. I'm going to practice tomorrow morning. If I can't get consistently good looking joints then I'll wait and get a professional. I've found that one of the most important things to know in doing things yourself is your own limitations.

OK... done working for the day. Its pizza and beer time.
 

Ken_in_Mass

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OK... it took me a while to figure out what you were answering. In the tip I read there was no mention of the effect of mustard on the technique. So if I'm getting drips down the pipes from the 2nd floor do I wait it out until it stops, or can I heat the pipes to try to dry them out? Sticking wadded up white bread in the pipes is such a folksy solution though. :)
 

Kingsotall

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Open any faucets upstairs as some water may be trapped and slowly dripping. Other than that it would be hard to get the water to flow away by heating the pipe. I have only seen it done on horizontal pipes not verticle.
 

Cass

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It is possible that the main shutoff is not working...and you have a very slow leak passing by it...
 

Ken_in_Mass

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I just realized that I don't know how to install the hose connection for the hand shower. My shower system came with no installation instructions!

The connection is a 1" circular brass fitting with a o-ring that the chrome hose connection fits on. The brass fitting has threads on the other end. What concerns me is that there doesn't seem to be any adjustment for wall depth.

This is my guess. The way it installs is to connect a female copper fitting the same as a basic shower head fitting so that it can be screwed onto a backer board for stability. Then a pipe threaded at both ends is used to extend the connection through the wall. The only adjustment would seem to be the length of the pipe. So if I don't place the copper threaded fitting correctly, I'm looking at a custom short pipe length.

I guess that's what I'm going to go with unless I hear otherwise from those who know what they're doing.

This certainly seems like one of those things where the 2nd time you need to do it will be so so much easier.

Thanks for all the advice!
 

Ken_in_Mass

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Thanks for the heads up... and to all for taking the time to help with advice.

I guess the moderators can feel free to delete the thread.

Thanks again... a bunch of wonderfully helpful people.

Bye
 
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