I Am 99% Sure I know the Problem, But I Don't Want To Admit It.

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Daavewaard

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This is like most well problems. The problem is underground and you won’t know what happened until you pull it up so you can see it. If it is a broken fitting as TW thinks then sch 40 pipe is not strong enough for what you are doing. If it is a glue joint as I think it is, then glue joints are not strong enough for what you are doing. Either way this is why most pump installers don’t use sch 40 to hang a pump from.

What do you mean the "Government forbids it"?

The 'it" I was referring to is air testing plastic pipe (PVC), as suggested recently in this thread. I was hunting around and found some warnings. When I said the "government", I was thinking of "big brother", I would have been more precise if I had said the "International Code Council" which concerns itself with building codes. Here is a post at their forum:

http://www.iccsafe.org/iccforums/Pages/default.aspx?action=ViewPosts&fid=11&tid=11961

Obviously, this will take more research if you are interested. Other comments I saw suggested however that some states or municipalities have adopted some anti-air testing based on things like this from Charlotte Pipe:

http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/InTheNews/Safely_testing_PVC_systems.pdf
 

Daavewaard

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And I made some progress today. I located and ordered some Schedule 80 pipe... I am planning to pick it up Wednesday.

This is how it is described: Schedule 80 PVC, 1 1/4" 20 feet long with threaded ends and one coupler included with each piece, eleven pieces.

Now...the obvious questions are:

1. Since I will be screwing this all together, do you suggest teflon tape or not, when screwing pvc threaded ends into threaded couplers? Any other tricks or tips you could share without giving away all your trade secrets?
2. What specific product gets screwed into the topmost 1 1/4" female threaded opening on my Gould pump? Is it stainless or PVC or what?


Thanks a million, your friend, the wacky homeowner. Without guys like me, you'd only be guessing how smart you are.
 

Craigpump

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Screw the PVC right into the top of the pump.

I like a little Rector Seal or Teflon paste on the threads, but I have seen guys use plumbers grease. Some guys put it together dry.
 

NHmaster3015

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Why do you hate Poly? We've been setting pumps on poly for longer than I have been in business and that's close to 40 years now. Like I said before, I have never had a single issue with a pump set on Poly. Whether you use a safety rope or not is immaterial. If you tape it to the pipe, it won't bind but then again, I have also never had to actually use a safety rope nor have I ever run across a pump that was hanging by one with the exception of a pump set on galvanized that rusted through and the pump was hanging on a wire safety and oh my, what a job pulling that mess but mostly because of the broken pipe.
 

NHmaster3015

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Time. You have to load and unload all those 20' sections, tape or dope them, screw them together one at a time, hold on to them going down the well, each section at a time. I bet I can set 3 pumps with Poly in the time it takes to do a single one on PVC. I set a 500' roll on the cross bar. Attach the pump, wires, torque arrestor and slide it down the hole as it unwinds off the reel. Tape off the wire, attach the pitless and I'm out of there after disinfection.
 

Valveman

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Whether you use a safety rope or not is immaterial. If you tape it to the pipe, it won't bind but then again, I have also never had to actually use a safety rope nor have I ever run across a pump that was hanging by one with the exception of a pump set on galvanized that rusted through and the pump was hanging on a wire safety and oh my, what a job pulling that mess but mostly because of the broken pipe.

I agree nothing wrong with poly pipe. It would be a much better choice than sch 40 PVC.

8” casing, safety rope, and standoffs as code?? As NH said he has never actually had to use the rope. The only time I have had to deal with rope was when it fell down the well and balled up on top of the pump. Use good pipe and you won’t need rope. Don’t use good pipe and the rope becomes a wedge to lock the pump in the well.

As usual, those codes were written by government officials who had no idea what they were doing, but have enough authority to make every ones life miserable.

We just as well put someone with a vested interest in cable companies in charge of the entire FCC. That would make about as much sense as letting a verified climate alarmist be in charge of the EPA and DOE, or a person who has never earned a dime run the Federal Reserve. Oh wait, those things have already happened. So I guess codes that don’t make sense are too small a problem to even worry about. Sorry!

We will probably find out later that the person who wrote those codes gets kickbacks from the company who makes “safety rope” and “standoffs”.
 

NHmaster3015

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Yes, maybe. We are required to use the rope, torque arrestors and wire standoffs. It adds a little cost to the job and a bit of time too but realistically its not a problem. I can understand not using rope in a 2" or 4" case because even if it doesn't rot off and fall down on the pump, unless its been well taped to the pipe, it will jam up as the pipe is pulled unless you are very careful to pull both pipe and rope evenly. I doubt anyone is making money off the code requirements. Most times they are based on erring on the side of caution.

It would take a lot of smooth talking to convince me to use a PVC drop though.
 

Texas Wellman

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I'm still waiting on the OP to update the thread on what was wrong with the pump. My wife would have done strung me up and called the pro's by now. If he's lucky the pro's would take pity on him but most won't touch a pump they didn't sell.
 

Daavewaard

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I'm still waiting on the OP to update the thread on what was wrong with the pump. My wife would have done strung me up and called the pro's by now. If he's lucky the pro's would take pity on him but most won't touch a pump they didn't sell.

Patience wore thin and we are beyond that now. I thought I'd have the pump out by now but here is the update...the mystery deepens a bit. Follow along:

These measurements are quick a minute ago using the pulled sch 40 pipe laying on the ground. Between 52 and 69 feet above where the pump was set into the water (at 206) the 1 1/4 PVC is full of water and is full now. The glued connections above that point seem exactly like all the rest and I spied no cracks. Will continue to recheck further. I'm yanking the pump after work tonight.
 

Reach4

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This is how it is described: Schedule 80 PVC, 1 1/4" 20 feet long with threaded ends and one coupler included with each piece, eleven pieces.
When I had my well string pulled recently to get rid of the pit, the pump people changed out the 1 inch PVC threaded couplers for stainless steel couplers.
 

LLigetfa

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...the mystery deepens a bit. Follow along:

So, the pipe being full of water suggests integrity of the section still in the well. Too bad you didn't pressure test it before you started pulling.

I had a neighbor that misdiagnosed a bad pump when he measured high amps. He was getting higher amps on only one of the two legs. The odd thing is he's an electrician by trade and should have known better. Turned out to be a bad heatshrink splice and current was leaking to ground.
 

Daavewaard

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So, the pipe being full of water suggests integrity of the section still in the well. Too bad you didn't pressure test it before you started pulling.

Well sir, I'll give you great credit for sticking by your guns...but I am interested in how pressure testing would have revealed anything useful in this situation. It seems there are two alternative answers here.

1. A hole which I have not discovered yet in the pipe above about 70 feet prevented the pumped water from reaching ground level. A pressure test would have revealed that a hole likely existed...so I'd pull the pipe to the hole and probably pull the pump to make sure it wasn't stuck in the mud.

2. A blockage of the pipe above about 70 feet prevented the pumped water from reaching ground level. A pressure test would have revealed that the pressure would hold...but not explain the dilemma, so I'd pull the pump.

Is there a third alternative where a pressure test would have been more revealing...and definitive?
 

LLigetfa

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Is there a third alternative where a pressure test would have been more revealing...and definitive?

If you mean saving from having to pull the pump, no. A blockage is unlikely. If it failed the pressure test, you would know the pipe was the most likely culprit.

So what is your next step once you get it all out of the hole? Are you going to replace the pump as well?
 

Daavewaard

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So what is your next step once you get it all out of the hole? Are you going to replace the pump as well?

As you will recall, I have a brand new Gould pump and my "expert" in town said that in all his years he's never had a Gould not run right out of the box. I actually do believe the pump is working properly...it's just darn difficult to prove it...hard to bench test it and hard to see it work because it's dark and wet down there at 206 feet. And, given the slow motion movement of my pump retailer he'd have a hissy listening why I was returning it and it would be 7-10 days to get a new one if I went that direction. This pump and all new piping is going into the hole as if the last several days never happened.

That's my plan.
 

LLigetfa

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...hard to bench test it...

This pump and all new piping is going into the hole as if the last several days never happened.

That's my plan.

Not sure if you have an aversion to pressure testing but I would put a stick of pipe and a pressure guage on it, stick it in a tank, and turn it on.
 

Daavewaard

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I do not have an aversion to pressure testing...I am not sure what the test would tell me at this moment. Also, the forum here tells me that with a three wire pump I cannot bench test it just by running temporary power to it...apparently it must have the capacitors. And lastly...I am buying water at the grocery store 3 gallons at a time...so I don't have a tank of water to put the pump in. Although if I could, I would.
 
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