I Am 99% Sure I know the Problem, But I Don't Want To Admit It.

[Texas Wellman]

It's possible that you may have tightened down the fitting too deep into the pump and actually prevented the check valve from opening. I've seen it a time or two. Lots of weird stuff going on with your well.

Did you measure the water level?

PS...here's the chart for the motor. It's for franklin, but the goulds should be the same.
http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/60Hz_AIM_13.pdf

 

[Daavewaard]

I suppose it's possible the fitting reaches too deep. I'll take a look. Thanks. I measured the well depth with a plumb bob and mason line...not as deep as once described. The bottom appears to be at 210 feet and while its an imperfect test, the wet string was 57 feet above the bottom...inside a 6 inch casing. So...the good news is that there seems to be plenty of water...knocking on wood.

Weird is sometimes my middle name...of course the facsinating thing is how much guessing goes on in the world of wells. Could be this or could be that, I guess we'll just pull the pump up and see.

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Water level will be interesting. If water is typically at 120 and stays at 180 or above, you have the right pump if you want a lot of flow. If your water was farther down, a 13GS15 would still have 1.5 HP, but it would have had more pump stages and would have handled more depth. With your pump at 205, we know that the pump should have been able to bring water up from that depth.

It seems to me that you might be able to pressurize the pipe to maybe 30 PSI with water or air from the top. If it holds, the pipe is not breached as the fellow on the phone suspected.

I had used the Franklin AIM manual to get that 9.6 amp number, but I made the mistake of using the 2-wire pump number rather than the 3-wire.

While we are talking about the Franklin AIM manual, I wonder what the difference is between the "Full Load" and "Maximum Load" numbers (page 13).

Footnote 2 says

Y = Yellow lead - line amps
B = Black lead - main winding amps
R = Red lead - start or auxiliary winding amps

So I see I had been mistaken on my color code too.

Edit: So your water is 153 ft down at the moment. It looks like the 13GS15 might have been a little better match to your well. Looking at your chart on reply 32, you will see that you are working more on the right side of the 50 and 60 PSI rows. Pumps are a little more efficient when you work near the middle of the row of numbers. However you are still well within the numbers, so your pump should work quite well.

 

[LLigetfa]

It's possible that you may have tightened down the fitting too deep into the pump and actually prevented the check valve from opening.

At the risk of poking the bear, If the pump were deadheaded, would it be drawing near max amps?

Is it common to use sch 40 in a 200 foot deep well?

 

[Daavewaard]

At the risk of poking the bear, If the pump were deadheaded, would it be drawing near max amps?

Is it common to use sch 40 in a 200 foot deep well?

Deadheaded? Is that like having the pump stuck in the mud? If that's what you mean, I wonder about that possibility too (thus unable to push any water up)? A great fear here.

I used schedule 40 because that's what was in there...worked fine with the previous pump, exactly the same make and model...whether that's common...one can read on this site that it is used successfully although there are other more sturdy choices...all well supported by years in the field. I fully accept responsibility for using the schedule 40, if it turns out to be the weak link.

Reach4, Pressurizing the line is an interesting idea, thanks.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Work is water moved, not pressure. The more pressure on the pump the amps drop because the water flow drops. You get max amps on open discharge, min. amps on dead-head condition or no-pump condition. If the bearings in a sub motor are bad the amps will rise on dead-head.

At the risk of poking the bear, If the pump were deadheaded, would it be drawing near max amps?

Is it common to use sch 40 in a 200 foot deep well?

 

[Valveman]

Work is water moved, not pressure. The more pressure on the pump the amps drop because the water flow drops. You get max amps on open discharge, min. amps on dead-head condition or no-pump condition. If the bearings in a sub motor are bad the amps will rise on dead-head.

So if he tightened the pipe down into the check valve too far (which I have done :-( it would be deadheaded and pulling minimum 7-8 amps. Pulling 10 means it is pumping water somewhere. My guess is the pipe came apart. What kind of glue, how long you let it set, temperature, humidity, and other things have to do with a glue joint coming apart. Sch 40 pipe is plenty strong, it is the glue joints that are the problem.

 

[Daavewaard]

So if he tightened the pipe down into the check valve too far (which I have done :-( it would be deadheaded and pulling minimum 7-8 amps. Pulling 10 means it is pumping water somewhere. My guess is the pipe came apart. What kind of glue, how long you let it set, temperature, humidity, and other things have to do with a glue joint coming apart. Sch 40 pipe is plenty strong, it is the glue joints that are the problem.

I did not see your comments until just now or I would have responded sooner.

I've had good luck with Christy's Red Hot Blue Glue available at my Home Depot...and I've never had a failure at a glued joint...even testing it immediately (mostly my experience is with 1" irrigation pvc). The well pipe is halfway up now (work commitments delay things...so inconvenient to have to work for a living. It "feels" like everything is intact as it is coming up...so the pump should be visible soon.

I'd estimate that the deepest 100 feet of PVC (which is still hanging there) had 24 hours of drying time...so...perhaps it fell apart as it was being lowered into the casing (but the electric wire and safety rope were not strained then or now)

So, you suspect a glue joint rather than the 1 1/4" PVC male adapter I screwed into the pump?

Anyway, as soon as that pump gets to ground level, as they say...in the fullness of time...I'll report what I see.

One last thing...will I be able to "see" the fitting squashed against the check valve, if that's what I did?

Thanks.

 

[Craigpump]

Two things

Throw the sch 40 pipe away. Like Valveman said the pipe has integrity but the glue joints suck. The adapters can break off the pipe or they can crack and leak. Use threaded and coupled sch 80 or sch 120.

Now that you have gotten rid of that junk pipe, throw the damn "safety rope" in the trash too. We did a job yesterday where the homeowner decided to his own install a few years ago. The asshat at Home Depot who sold him the pump sold him the safety rope that trapped the pump in the hole. Luckily we were able to snare the rope and save the job, most aren't so lucky....

 

[LLigetfa]

So, you suspect a glue joint rather than the 1 1/4" PVC male adapter I screwed into the pump?

Did you pressure test it as suggested?

 

[Texas Wellman]

MY $.02 on glued joints...

Since we have a ton of packer jets in this area set on glued sch 40 PVC I have a lot of experience in getting stuck ones out of wells. I have pulled on stuck PVC lots and lots of times. Although I have never and probably never will set a sub on sch 40 glued I have never seen it break at the glued joint. Usually the PVC will snap just above or below of the glued portion. I have used a 3,000 lb winch to pull and have yet to pull the joint in half at the glued portion. What I have seen is that if for some reason the glue is bad it will come apart within a few days of being installed.

I agree with Craig. Get rid of the sch 40 glued and go back with sch 80. I like to use stainless or brass collars also.

 

[Daavewaard]

"Schedule 40 is plenty strong" vs. "throw the sch 40 pipe away". Dueling experts...what fun to grab some popcorn and watch. (Yes. I do understand the issue with the glue joints, but experts will disagree there too.)

You know us wacky homeowners...always trying to pinch pennies...but I will do what's right. As I mentioned earlier I am having a devil of a time finding threaded schedule 80 that I don't have to wait for a delivery across country...more research today.

As for pressure testing, I found that idea intriguing but also found horror stories suggesting pressure testing could be dangerous...with too much pressure, duh. And thank God, the government has apparently stepped in to forbid it. More dueling experts. Decided to forego that since I was pulling the whole shebang anyway. When I get the last 20+ feet including the pump...if no obvious breaks reveal themselves, or if the pump isn't dangling by my electric wire, I probably will test the pressure then, to see if there is a leak in that section...but then quickly move on from trying to figure what happened to getting that pump back in the water.

Seriously, thanks for all the great feedback.

 

[Valveman]

This is like most well problems. The problem is underground and you won’t know what happened until you pull it up so you can see it. If it is a broken fitting as TW thinks then sch 40 pipe is not strong enough for what you are doing. If it is a glue joint as I think it is, then glue joints are not strong enough for what you are doing. Either way this is why most pump installers don’t use sch 40 to hang a pump from.

What do you mean the "Government forbids it"?

 

[NHmaster3015]

What is with you guys and PVC? The pump is at around 300' which is about where we set 90% of the pumps in this area and we always set them on 160lb Poly using Stainless barb fitting at the pump. I have NEVER seen 160 poly fail and I've seen a bunch of pumps set way deeper on it than 300' So why screw around with PVC and all that hassle? I don't get it. Must be a regional thing. As for the safety rope, We are required to drill 8" minimum so the rope is never a problem either and its required under our code along with a torque arrestor. Something else you guys never use either.

Considering the aggravation endured pulling this pump twice now? and all the worry and weeping wife and all, I would think that calling a professional would have been the way to go in the first place.

 

[Reach4]

What is with you guys and PVC? The pump is at around 300' which is about where we set 90% of the pumps in this area and we always set them on 160lb Poly using Stainless barb fitting at the pump. I have NEVER seen 160 poly fail and

Reply #40 amended the depth information: "The pump is set at 205 feet." That does not change your point, I presume.

As I understand it, one reason to like PVC is because the poly has a set to it. In uncased rock wells, it will therefore scuff the same spots on the poly. Also, the poly might press the wire against the bore in spots.

 

[NHmaster3015]

Nah, with the weight of the pump and the pipe full of water it will be straight as an arrow in about five minutes but, stand-off's are pretty cheap too.

 

[LLigetfa]

As for the safety rope, We are required to drill 8" minimum so the rope is never a problem either and its required under our code along with a torque arrestor...

I tape the rope to the pipe at the same time I tape the wire to it so it would never fall down and ball up.

When I pulled my pump that hung on poly for about a decade, the torque arrestor was disintegrated from the back-and-forth flexing that the torque induced, so I know it was working. I just made sure the new one was better secured when I put it in. I have a 6" casing so it would never trap the pump. I also used spacers.

 

[Craigpump]

Poly vs sch 80

What's better Toyota or Nissan, Ford or Chevy, Coke or Pepsi?

Personally, I "F"ing hate poly except in a trench, but I do put in on occasion like in vaults or wells that are tough to access. I understand why so many people use it. It's fast, relatively easy to handle, cheap and you don't need a hoist truck to pull it.

Id like to hang everything on steel and keep the plumbers with their Up Z Dazys off the job.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Put me in the "hate poly" category also. Don't know why anybody would use it. Might as well go with glued sch 40 pvc if you're going to do poly.

Rope may not bind up in an 8" well but it's a different ball game with a 4" well as is common here in TX. An 8" well here would probably do 1,000 gpm or better.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Put me in the "hate poly" category also. Don't know why anybody would use it. Might as well go with glued sch 40 pvc if you're going to do poly.

Rope may not bind up in an 8" well but it's a different ball game with a 4" well as is common here in TX. An 8" well here would probably do 1,000 gpm or better.

Sounds like you guys need to learn how to drill a proper well