How's my plumber doing?

[Terry]

I don't think anyone is talking about "highest" bidder, most people recommend a middle or average bid.

If you are having problems with a high and mighty plumbing company, then that's just sad. You would expect good work from a company like that.
That may not always be the case though. And it's sometimes hard to know that unless you have some sort of experience with them. Sometimes even a good company can get a new hire that takes a while to weed out.

When I was building homes, my contractors were in the middle. Though I will say that the finish carpenter, the rough framers, the drywall, the painting and roofing were excellent.
But even at the start, the guys grading were amazing, and the foundation guys were perfect.

I will say that on the second home, I had some problems. The second home I had to redo the driveway and patio. Heck, the second home looked like a second attempt. For some reason, the first home was very good, and then the second wasn't. But then after that, I was up and rolling until the late 80's economy took me out of it. That's when I went back to plumbing.

 

[Augusta]

Thanks for contributing to the demise of the ozone layer! My 33 year old daughter that just had a chunk of melanoma carved out of her arm thanks to you and your Expert HVAC guy. In case you don't realize it the HVAC guys aren't just supposed to put in 1-2 lbs. of freon for $50 a visit but rather they are supposed to repair the leak causing the loss of freon which costs more.

BTW My daughter is fair skinned and never had a heavy exposure to the sun. She has always been the leading advocate of sunscreen being applied in our family. She is a proper skin care poster child yet has had melanoma removed. Thanks!

First, sorry to hear about your daughter. Second, boy, some of you guys are straight up nuts. And pulling your daughter into this thread? I've got a few for you, Redwood:

Have you bought your wife/girlfriend a diamond before? Thanks for contributing to the death and brutality of hundreds if not thousands of men, women, and children in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond

Do you separate each and every last piece of garbage and recycle every last thing you have ever purchased? No? Now there's more polution in the world than need be - helping the demise of the Ozone layer. Thanks!

Do you run a dishwasher instead of washing dishes by hand? Thanks for contributing to depleting our water table. We only have so much and it will certainly run out. Thanks!

http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/indicators/C57/water_2002

Do you purchase all American products (car, clothes, groceries, etc.)? Thanks for contributing to the demise of the US economy and helping the Chinese beat us down. Thanks!

Is every last light bulb in your home, car, etc. the new fluorescent bulb? Do you pay taxes to the US government? Uh oh, guess who still uses incandescent light bulbs? The Department of Energy. So you support the Ozone killers with your tax dollars. Thanks!

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/08/joke-how-many-d-o-e-workers-does-it-take-to/

Do you or does an immediate family member drive a gas burning automobile? Thanks for not going green and contributing to our dependency on foreign oil! Thanks!

Are you using Natural Gas in your home? Methane (natural gas) is the second most important of the greenhouse gases resulting from human activities that are depleting the Ozone layer. Propane in that torch to sweat pipes? Oil in your car? Do you use coal in outdoor grilling? Thanks!

http://www.gcrio.org/ipcc/qa/04.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/ask/environment_faqs.asp

Give me a break, pal. You're way off the deep end.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

Good points. I don't like buying diamonds. Sorry gals.
And I certainly wouldn't wear any myself. That's just too wierd.

I do drive a four wheel drive SUV up skiing. I contribute there.

Natural gas furnace and water heater, you bet!

And my car has air conditioning. So while I'm cooling the inside, I'm warming up the planet.
They say we're going to have a good snow year in the Northwest. Should be good for skiing.

 

[Redwood]

Have you bought your wife/girlfriend a diamond before?

No we selected an alternative type of stone that was not dripping with blood.

Do you separate each and every last piece of garbage and recycle every last thing you have ever purchased?

We separate and recycle everything that is accepted in our location, we avoid purchasing items with excess packaging and we also compost.

Do you run a dishwasher instead of washing dishes by hand?

Yes because todays dishwashers use far less water than washing by hand and we do run full loads.

Do you purchase all American products (car, clothes, groceries, etc.)?

Yes we do as much as possible. It is difficult considering the present state of decay of our industry but yes as much as possible. In fact I install a lot of Toto toilets made in Morrow, Georgia instead of American Standard made in Mexico and Central America.

Is every last light bulb in your home, car, etc. the new fluorescent bulb? Do you pay taxes to the US government?

Every bulb in my home is compact fluorescent. For my cars they are not available. Yes, I have no choice not to pay taxes sorry...

Do you or does an immediate family member drive a gas burning automobile?

Yes not much choice I have to have a work van for what i do but when it is not being used for work we drive a fairly new Toyota Camry. Mass transit in our area is not very good and we are hoping to see improvements soon. Still carrying a sewer snaking machine on a bus in not viable.

Are you using Natural Gas in your home?

No, But we hope to be moving soon and I would like to see high efficiency low nox gas appliance in the new home.

Give me a break, pal. You're way off the deep end.

Not perfect but trying....

I'd like to think I am and I think everyone should be.
It is a big mistake for our leaders to allow jobs to be shipped to China where there are no environmental restrictions on their industry.

 

[Terry]

Here is a picture of a plumber from Australia that has very confused looking pipe that is not even vented. I guess down under they don't need vents. That quit plumbing like that in the US somewhere in the 20's.

 

[Terry]

Here is one home, it was build in 1986, but remodeled in 94 by John Day.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/5171-150th-pl-se,-98006_rb/

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=47.55419795611593~-122.13956976686478&lvl=19&sty=h&where1=5171 150th Pl SE, Bellevue, WA 98006-3541

And here is the home I build next door to it in 1986
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5161-150th-Pl-SE-Bellevue-WA-98006/48876618_zpid/

http://www.windermere.com/index.cfm...ngID=76336132&CFID=111067613&CFTOKEN=20023683

 

[Ian Gills]

Oh dear. They wouldn't pass code today. Not where I live. There are strict rules that a room must be much more than three feet high (second pic with section of giant roof on left) and a garage door can only be used as a door to the garage and not to the hallway (first pic). Garbage bins cannot be six feet high (grey box in second pic next to room with 3 foot high ceiling). I also question the basketball net that is two stories tall.


That's why I like DIY. We take the time to measure things before we build them.

And I do buy diamonds. But only those certified by the Kimberley Process as nearly all cut diamonds are nowadays unless you go to the kinds of countries I go to and come back with rough stones (which does not happen very often unless your name is Naomi Campbell).

 

[Terry]

There are strict rules that a room must be much more than three feet high (second pic with section of giant roof on left)

That's for the little leprechauns, you're familiar with them right?

 

[Ian Gills]

Yes, I am.

But it just goes to show. They don't build homes in America any more like they used to back in Terry's day.

 

[Geniescience]

Ball peen hammer, that is what I've learned from this thread.

 

[Ian Gills]

Yes, do't get one confused with a point-peen hammer or chisel-peen hammer or you'll be sorry. Though the process of peening has become rarer in metal fabrication, the ball-peen hammer remains useful for many tasks, such as striking punches and chisels.

 

[hj]

quote; By the way, this plumber works full time for the County

In other words you hired a "bootleg" plumber working on the side. WHAT does he do for the county, since few municipal plumbers install bathtubs. IF it shifted in the wall it would be because it was NOT fastened, and he should have realized that as soon as he measured to make the holes. He is completely incompetent to do the work you hired him for. AND if your area has a contractor registration agency, you should contact them. If he is a licensed contractor, which is not likely, they can "convince" him to redo the job properly, and if he is not, they can take steps to insure that he does not do any other work like that. In many, if not all, jurisdictions, if you hire an "unlicensed contractor" to do a task, and don't feel like paying him, you do NOT have to, period. That is his gamble for being unlicensed. But, I recently had my house appraised and it was $200.00 per sq. foot

 

[hj]

quote; It's an older home the lawn doesn't have grass growing...

It doesn't need grass, it has LOCATION. And the mantra of real estate is "location, location, location", NOT "grass, grass, grass", unless it has a "lettuce farm" in the basement, then maybe "grass" would be a factor.

another quote; I've been using an EXPERT HVAC guy for over a decade now. That guy is as good as gold. Will go out and put 1 to 2 pounds of freon, recharge units for $50 a visit.

You've got to be kidding me. $50.00? I charge twice that as soon as I start my truck, and I don't even "throw in" anything. As far as being the highest priced, I am not sure where I am in the spectrum, but I do tell my customers, "I am NOT the cheapest, but I am the best". If I get the job I make money, if I don't get it, I don't lose money, so it works out okay for me.

Third quote to eliminate making additional posts. the ball-peen hammer remains useful for many tasks, such as striking punches and chisels.

As long as you do not try to use the "ball peen" to do it, but then a machinist's hammer is just as good, and maybe even better if you need a heavier hammer.

As far as "justifying" your choices when you use "cheap" workers, rationalization is a powerful attitude, and works very well, don't you agree? Apparently, you go with the odds. Several "good" choices, balance out a couple of bad ones. You do feel that making ALL good choices, but paying more for them, is worth more than the alternate.

 

[Ballvalve]

Any ball pein hammer works for massaging crooked HVAC workers and blind irresponsibe plumbers.

 

[Ian Gills]

Yes. It's always best to play it safe and ask a "pro" to do the work for you instead.

[video=youtube;s8-PlnJ3kkk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8-PlnJ3kkk[/video]

But I still prefer to DIY.

 

[Ballvalve]

I grew up on that and am raising a kid on them. Probably why we never hired a plumber.

This should be a sticky at the beginning of most of the forums!

Where the hell are the THREE STOOGES STAMPS? Instead we get wretched Bart Simpson.

 

[Ian Gills]

Agreed. I can't see why you'd ever hire a plumber.

Invite one round to watch the game and have a few beers, maybe. But a cash transaction? No, never.

Electricians also need to be monitored closely for the quality of their work. At least the American variety.

 

[Augusta]

Crew 3 begins tomorrow - high and mighty plumbing company

Made a little progress the past few days with the bathroom work. I have to decide between the lessor of evils: Option 1. Handymen/plumbers on the side. 2 Crews. Strike out. Just can't seem to catch a break with an experienced guy who's not in over his head, and they are just like the 3 stooges videos in this thread, Option 2. DIY (not an option since I can't possibly do all the work - this is property management) Option 3. Plumbing company. In my past experience, Master plumbers don't come out to do the work, they send the new guys out instead.

Since I'm left with only the plumbing company option - here I go. Called (will keep it anonymous) ABC Plumbing co on 11/02/2010 at 11:47am. Secretary picked up after 2 rings. So far so good. Asked me what my name was a couple of times and after explaining what I needed done twice, she said they'd call me. Had to stop her before she hung up to get the "next step" info. I asked, "when will someone call me back?" She replied, "sometime tomorrow." As a side note, business owners, PLEASE don't hire some ditzy hot chic for the sake of her hotness and have her answer the phones. I know she's eye candy for you but I can't see her. You do realize this chic is the first impression of your business, yes? Even worse are those who hire their wives to answer the phones. Now you've got this rude wench that you couldn't fire even if you wanted to. Stop that. Anyways, the plumbing guy called me back on 11/03/2010 at 12 noon. Pretty friendly guy. I asked him:

Insurance: check
In the phone book: check
Licensed: check
A+ BBB rating: check (not that it matters to me because anyone with an ounce of wisdom knows that the BBB is a total farce. I only included that detail for those who actually think it makes a difference.)
Referred by two other business owners I know: check
Master plumber: no. Said he has been plumbing since he was a teenager (he's in his 40's). I asked him if he's the one who's going to be doing the work. He said, "No, I have some guys under me who will be doing the work and I'll be supervising them." I responded, "Ok, so, these are new guys?" Plumber says, "well, they're really good and have being doing this sort of thing for a couple of years now." Here we go with the new guys again.

So, let's call him "Joe the plumber" from ABC Plumbing co, says that he will call me to come over and give me an estimate on 11/03/2010 in the evening or possibly the next day. Joe calls me on 11/04/2010 at 9:30am and asks if I can meet him at the home at 12 noon. I agreed and we met. I expressed my concerns with plumbing companies sending in their new guys and he reassures me that they will do a great job. Keep in mind crews 1 and 2 told me the same thing. I asked Joe if he was going to pull a permit and he said that they wouldn't need to since this isn't a major renovation. To satisfy my curiosity, I decided to visit the web site for the permits office and here's what it says:

***************************************************
WHEN IS A PERMIT REQUIRED?

Building Permits are required for:
New Construction • Additions • Roofing • Major Renovations • Swimming
Pools • Decks • Sheds over 120 sq. ft. • Signs • Sprinkler
Installations • Major Repairs • Siding & Windows • Demolition

Trade Permits are required for:
All new installations and certain repair work • Electrical meter
resets and service changes

A Permit is not required for:
Sidewalks and driveways • Painting, wallpapering, tiling, carpeting,
cabinets, counter tops, and similar finish work • Fences under 6 feet
high • Retaining walls under 4 feet

Please call to verify if your work requires a permit.
***************************************************

Since I have no idea if my bathroom work qualifies for major renovation/repair, I decided to call the permits office and ask them. Here's the conversation: It sounded like she paused long enough to flip a coin to give me an answer. I still haven't spoken to someone at the permits office who can give me a definite answer.

Last night I removed the wall in the master bath so the plumbing company could see exactly what they were working with. I was not there when crew #2 sealed up the wall but I found a couple of things.
1. The awesome sweat job Crew #2 did on the tub spout was leaking inside the wall, and
2. Since there was a vent pipe in the way, the decided to do absolutely nothing about it. The entire vertical side of the shower insert was attached to thin air and the drywall was right behind it, also attached to thin air. See pics. Joe said he doesn't know why on earth the valves were off center, why they didn't just cut out the 45 on the vent and raise it above the shower insert so as to get a 2X4 in there, and he said it appeared as though there was no flux on the elbow for the tub spout and didn't look like it was sweated...almost like they just forgot to do it. Joe said he could have all of the plumbing cut out and fixed in a few hours. He then said, "this stuff in the other bath looks bad. I'm not trying to upsell you or anything, but I could easily raise the trim several inches, cut a new hole higher up such that the trim still covers the original hole, center everything on the second bath since you have the entire wall taken out. May as well get it while we're in there." His total estimate to fix the plumbing in both baths was about 5 hours at $85 per hour. Joe said he has a drywall guy that can do the drywall work, but I may just tackle that one myself. I already have all my drywall tools there at the house. Joe says he can knock out this plumbing work and be completely done tomorrow.

Regarding Crew #2, I decided to send them a check for $500 (they wanted to negotiate $1000 for the hallway bath, and $0 for the master). I think $500 is fair enough considering they quit on me, didn't want to fix the mess ups, I had to buy another set of inserts (you can't buy one, you have to buy the whole set), and made nothing but excuses for the bad work.

Below are the pictures right after I removed the drywall last night.

Crew #2's work that I didn't get to see since they sealed up the wall when I wasn't there.

 

[Terry]

I like how your new guy sounds.

 

[Augusta]

No call no show.

I like how your new guy sounds.

Yeah, but Terry, the legit, A+ BBB rating, recommended, licensed, insured, in the phone book, worker's comp, Plumbing Company was supposed to start and finish today unattended. I went over to that home to check on the job this evening. The Plumbing Company was a "no call no show." Nothing had been done - no one even showed up. Strike one.

Terry, have you ever done a "no call no show?" The day I ever do that to a single customer will be the day I shut down business. The day my dad died I had a real estate closing. I attended that closing with my client as if nothing had happened.