How important is it to pull a permit?

[Paramedic_Bryant]

Newbie alert! This question has probably been beaten to death but I can't find it in the search. I am remodeling my basement and adding a full and another half bath along with a laundry room. Even I can tell the existing plumbing was not to code. I at least know when to wye and when to use a san-tee. I have the DWV almost finished and am wondering how important it is to pull a permit and have it inspected. I am planning to build a new house and sell this one within the next two years. BTW we are in TN. Thanks for your help.

 

[Stuff]

This is highly location dependent. If not near a major city then you are probably fine without any permits. Some places you can't sneeze without a permit, then cross to the adjacent municipality and they only want permits for new construction.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadziedzic]

As was already mentioned, a lot depends on your location. I've always pulled permits for any significant modifications, and have had a good working relationship with the building inspectors in my city (I think they appreciate the fact I'm trying to do things by the book).

FWIW, I recently helped my father-in-law fill out a residential real estate disclosure form (New Hampshire) when listing his house for sale, and saw this section:

9.q: Modifications: Are you aware of any modifications or repairs made without the necessary permits?

That language is possibly specific to the New Hampshire Association of Realtors, but it's not unreasonable to think that might appear elsewhere. How would you answer that question in regards to any work you might do without a permit?

 

[hj]

most areas want to know of ANY "unpermitted" modifications.

 

[Michael Young]

Permit protects you. You can pull a homeowner permit. You can also take your drawings down to plan review and they will give you advice that will help you avoid having to cut out and do the work over again. Homeowner permits are great. And yes, it will protect you from EVER having it bite you in the ass when you try to sell the property.

I bought a house with an entire upstairs garage that was illegally installed before i bought it. Getting that sucker permitted and inspected after-the-fact was a massive headache. Just pull a permit. Even the old timers miss stuff. Homeowners tend to miss even more.

 

[Paramedic_Bryant]

I know you guys are right. I appreciate you giving me your opinion. As hard as I've tried to do it all right, I am sure I have made some rookie mistakes. Would it be okay to post some pictures and you guys critique it before I embarrass myself in front of the inspector?

 

[Reach4]

I would discuss it with a local real estate agent or two. They will know what tends to interfere with sales locally.

 

[Sylvan]

Someone installed an outside bar BQ and ran a 1/2" gas line to it using black pipe that rusted

They called the gas supplier as they smelled and the utility red tagged the gas meter (shut off all gas to the house)

We had to bring all the piping up to code after we did our repairs the plumbing inspector checked our gauge and noticed a toilet and small sink in the basement and gave them a violation to have it removed

Filing protects the home owner and the contractor

 

[Paramedic_Bryant]

 

[WorthFlorida]

As explained above by a few why a permits are needed but it also protects you and after you sell the house should there ever be an insurance claim. If a major problem arises such that some drains will never drain properly or a major sewer drain backup, insurance may not pay a claim because of "illegal" installation and not permitted or inspected by the local jurisdiction. That is after you sell the home you can be liable and don't count on a home inspector's report to clear you.

A project this big it be worth hiring a licensed plumber to finish it off. You did most if the labor intensive part, trenching, but I'm no plumber but from what I learned from this forum over the years I see a few things. Is that 3" vertical an air vent only or a wet vent. You may need a cleanout in more than one location. At the wall before going out to the sewer or septic tank, you may want to add a backflow preventer while you have the floor opened up.

The 45's on the 3" pipe what looks like for a toilet, may be an area that can easily cause blockage. An experience plumber would know. What about venting for the toilet and the washing machine drain? You need to check local code for floor drains in basements. If you get a major sewer backup, other than the shower drain, you'll have waste water filling the basement. Floor drains traps dry out very easy and if your in a radon gas area it may not be allowed at all. Do all of the pipe runs have proper slope? The drain lines may need proper support for inspection so when heavy dirt and cement is covered over pipe, the pipe and joints won't bend, crack or move.

Standard Horizontal Drainage Pipe Slope
PIPE DIAMETER MINIMUM SLOPE
2 1/2" or smaller 1/4" per foot
3" to 6" 1/8" per foot
8" or larger 1/16" per foot

 

[WorthFlorida]

Your real estate agent should know the answer. It may vary around the country or jurisdiction but it most likely will fall on you to, the new owner to bring it up to code and permits. As said above it can be a real hassle. Florida and now most states require the seller to disclose any know issues or problems with the home. After the sale and a major problem arises, the seller could be financially liable but it may have to go to court.

But what happens if the seller moves out of state, you're probably stuck. You can check with the realtor that I believe certain amount of monies can be left in escrow of a certain period to cover such an event. Usually the local taxing district will re evaluate the home and for example, the property was listed as a four bedroom but the property records show only three, that is a red flag. Realities will always check the property records for the home description to list it. Now a days and in the past always use a realty. All states have laws and procedures to protect both the seller and the buyer. If this is more of a private sale, walk away unless you are paying cash and have money to do all repairs and upgrades needed.

Mortgage companies are very careful now a days after the housing crunch that started 15 years ago and it took about five or six years before the it settled down. Mortgage companies use property appraiser's that will do an outside inspection from the street and that it is not overpriced for the current market.

The four main area's of concern. HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and structure. If it's a room addition of any kind, it may have to be torn down. Electrical, could be dangerous. Electric problem can cause fire and injury. It would be needed to brought up to code if it is behind walls, the walls nave have to be opened. Same as for plumbing.

 

[Sylvan]

Two weeks ago we were called to remove a violation.

New bathroom installed no permit was ever taken out as the building was for sale

We had to hire an architect and we had to remove the walls as I did not want the responsibility of certifying someone else's work

The DOB placed a fine plus the ECB also fined the owner $10,000 later everything is up to code. NOT including new plumbing installed

Some localities will allow a homeowner to do the work and have it filed and inspected NYC does not allow non licensed people to do electrical or plumbing

Recent legislation, on December 28, 2017, has increased the civil penalties for Work Without Permit violations. The penalty for Work Without a Permit violation is increased to six times the amount of the fee payable for the permit and the minimum has increased to $600 with a maximum penalty of $10,000.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/work_without_permit_civil_penalty_sn.pdf
Civil Penalties Increased for Work Without a Permit - NYC.gov

New changes $15,000 JUSt in fines not including the work to make it legal


https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/work_without_permit_civil_penalty_sn.pdf

 

[Sylvan]

Penalty for Work Without a Permit Violations  Penalty for Work Without a Permit on a one- or two-family dwelling The penalty for Work Without a Permit violation is increased to six times the amount of the fee payable for the permit and the minimum has increased to $600 with a maximum penalty of $10,000.  Penalty for Work Without a Permit on other than a one- or two-family dwelling The penalty for Work Without a Permit violation is increased to twenty one times the amount of the fee payable for the permit and the minimum has increased to $6,000 with a maximum penalty of $15,000.