How does the patented Jacuzzi Hydrocel pressure tanks work without air in the tanks to build pressure? Is the system problematic?

[Norwegian]

There is very little information on the web about this system, but I understand that this system do not use air in the pressure-tanks to make pressure, but is electronical controlled when the pump shall start and stop. Correct?

I live in Norway and I have not got any who can recognise the system for me here, and this is a US based forum? Anyway, I saw one post here where a man wrote that he would replace his Jacuzzi Hydrocel pressure tanks, so then I assume this system has been sold in the US too.

After I cleaned the tiny hole (who was nearly stuck) were the the water shall go thru to press on the membrane in the pressure switch, then the pump goes only for about a second, then it takes a break for about half a minute, and this repeats until the set pressure is achieved. Why is so? Can the system be reset in any way? Because no matter how I now turn up or down the small screw in the pressure switch (which I understand is supposed to regulate the interval the pump kicks in), does not change the interval the pump kicks in.

 

[Valveman]

Is it cycling on and off like that while you are using water or when all taps are closed?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Norwegian]

It happens when all taps are closed after I have used water for a minute or two. I can't hear the pump when one tap is open, but then the water pressure slowly decreases until it just drips out of the tap, so I assume the same thing happens then.

And I really wonder how this system is set up to work. Is there a bladder inside these tanks? There is no drain valve at the bottom of these tanks, but only an overpressure valve at the bottom and one at the top. So how do I maintain these tanks?

 

[Reach4]

See https://patents.google.com/patent/US3876336A/en
I have never heard of this before.

 

[Fitter30]

Think a expansion chamber is bad and full of water. Is there away to check their air pressure?

 

[Valveman]

There are many similar devices still on the market today. They simply block the flow to the pressure switch as long as any demand is present. I don't know how the small tank works. I doubt it has an air charge. It maybe controlled with a spring. Either way I think you have a bad check valve on the pump as it should not be coming on unless a tap is opened.

 

[WorthFlorida]

As usual Cary is right, controlled by a spring. In the patent description it mentions an "expanding chamber". Look at the label for any Patent numbers. There might be more on the US Patent Office web site.

There is a small leak somewhere that is causing the pressure to drop. Shut the water off after this hydro cell and if the pressure still drop, is not at any faucet.

US3876336A - Tankless automatic water system - Google Patents

The invention involves an automatic water supply system requiring no consumer storage tanks, and in which the pump is started in operation in response to the opening of a service line. A small expansible chamber in flow communication with the service line and in pressure communication with a...

patents.google.com

 

[Norwegian]

Thank you very much for the link to the patent Reach4. I have not found a patent number at my system WorthFlorida, but in the link to the patent Reach4 gave me I found this in the description:

"In its preferred form, this variable pressure device involves an inflatable tube 29 in a housing 31, and flow connected to the pump 1 and service line 11, and pressure coupled to the pressure switch 23.

Structurally, the inflatable tube 29 is an open ended tube supported axially through the housing with adequate space within the housing for expansion of the tube in response to water pumped into the tube under pressure. One end of the tube is flow connected to the pump and service line via in valve assembly 27, while the other end of the tube is coupled to the pressure switch 23 whereby the prevailing pressure of the water in the tube will register on the pressure switch to determine its operation."

And this description look similar to my system. Then I think it should be some compressed air in between the housings and the bladder because it is mounted one pressure relief valve at the top, and one at the bottom, of the housing. So maybe there is too little air in the housings despite there is no air filling valve there? Then I first will try to get more air in the housings, and then see what happends.

 

[Valveman]

That product has not been sold since the 70's. It works fairly similar to a Cycle Stop Valve. Although the CSV is much better for the pump, it is still amazing that these systems and the pumps they control have lasted that long. These devices that eliminate pump cycling make pumps last so long that manufacturers deemed them a disruptive product and stopped making them. I always say if you want your pump to last a long time, control it with something that the pump manufacturers do not mention or even try to talk you out of. They are in the business of selling pumps and devices that eliminate cycling greatly reduce the number of pumps they get to sell.

 

[Norwegian]

Valveman, thank you for the advice that it can be a faulty check valve. Faulty in what way? Staying only in open position? Do you then think the faulty check valve is down or up in the water line? My pump is sitting down in a drilled hole in the ground, so do you then think I can fix the problem by only adding a extra check valve above ground right before my pressure tanks?

I am shure it is not the pressure switch that repeatedly switches on and off the pump for only a second at the time, because I can only hear the pressure switch is clicking when the set pressure in the system is obtained. So is it then some kind of electrical overload switch that does it? I add a picture of my pump switch? So is that some kind of overload switch? It's worth mentioning then that that switch once turned off automatically after this failed pump system had been running for a few minutes, so could it be that this is an overload switch?

I managed to empty my tanks for water, and get air around the bladder, so I think the problem is not due to waterlogged tanks.

 

[Valveman]

There should be a check valve down the well on top of the pump. That check valve is leaking back if the pump comes on when no aps are open. Placing another check valve before the pressure switch will stop the water from going back down the well. However, it will cause water hammer when the pump starts. It is a good temporary fix, but will need to be installed at the pump to solve the water hammer problem.

That type pump has an automatic overload in the motor. When the overload trips the water just shuts off. Then in a minute or so the water just magically comes back on. If this is happening your pump has cycled on and off as many times as it was designed to survive, and you will need a new pump/motor.

 

[Norwegian]

Then I am happy Valveman, because at this moment I am happy for any advice even if it's just a temporary fix. So I will try out to put another check valve before the the pressure switch.