How close to bottom of well can place a sub?

[Jfharper]

Reach is right that a longer shroud will not help deepen your pump. As soon as the water level drops below the intake of the pump you will loose prime. But I do use longer shrouds to keep from pumping a lot of sand. If you leave the shroud sticking out past the motor 2 or 3 feet, the water velocity coming up the 4” pipe is so slow that sand won’t come with it. This helps keep sand out of the pump and system. However, the sand will fall back to the bottom of the well and will eventually fill up to the pump. This only works when you have the shroud and motor several feet above the bottom of the well.

Thanks...so I've read one can set the sub a few inches to several feet above the bottom of the well if using a shroud. Being my situation where I measured water level at 50', sub at 60', and well bottom at 75'...possibly deeper if there is sediment...if I go with the no sand method you described above and longer shroud, lets say 2' sub length + 2' shroud past motor length + 5' extra = 9'...right now I have 15' from measured sub top to measured well bottom which gives me 6' remaining to lower sub.

If I don't go the no sand method, shroud is at motor bottom or a couple inches past I gain 2' there as well can lower sub a few inches above well bottom and gain 5' more...lets minus 1' for sub set above well bottom, I now have 12' to lower sub if shroud is motor length and sub set 1' above well bottom.

This assumes I cannot clean any sediment out with jetting. I am at a level with a dry seasonal river bed, course sandy condition...well casing is 6" pvc...would you consider this to be a situation where I should use your no sand method (6' sub drop) or should I go the 12' sub drop?

When I do the jetting, I could see if I suck sand up...if so would that tell me which way to go? Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Valveman]

The lower you can put the pump the more well water you can utilize. The problem with the “no sand” shroud method is if your well makes a lot of sand, it will fill up to the pump and the well will need to be cleaned out. With the shroud flush with the bottom of the motor, you will pump the sand out of the well and have to deal with it on top.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jfharper]

The lower you can put the pump the more well water you can utilize. The problem with the “no sand†shroud method is if your well makes a lot of sand, it will fill up to the pump and the well will need to be cleaned out. With the shroud flush with the bottom of the motor, you will pump the sand out of the well and have to deal with it on top.

Thanks, I think I'll go with the shroud flush with bottom of the motor method.

 

[Jfharper]

Thanks, I think I'll go with the shroud flush with bottom of the motor method.

Does the drop pipe need Teflon tape or pipe dope on the threads?

I'm going to shock the well overnight after messing with...was going to completely shut the gate valve to the holding tank and run the sub out a 3/4" spigot attached to a t to get the choline thru. I didn't want to shock the holding tank because it would take longer to flush...will running the sub they only a 3/4" spigot be ok? I think valve an said I could reduce the sub flow down to 1 gpm without problem...just wanted to double check the 3/4" spigot will be greater than 1 gpm? Thanks

 

[LLigetfa]

Most don't use tape or dope on PVC threaded pipe.

A 1/2" hosebib puts out around 5 GPM.

 

[Jfharper]

Most don't use tape or dope on PVC threaded pipe.

A 1/2" hosebib puts out around 5 GPM.

Thanks.
I have to go from 1.25" sch 80 drop pipe into 2" galvanized "well seal contraption" as valveman so eloquently put it.

They currently have the 1.25" drop pipe threaded into a sch 40 1.25" to 1.5" adapter then threaded into another adapter 1.5" to 2" also sch 40, and finally threaded into a 2" sch 80 coupling...they put cement on the two adapters...this can be seen in pics I provided above. If I duplicated this when i put the new drop pipe in (sch 80 1.25") is there any problem with using sch 40 threaded adapters like this? Should I cement them like they did? My other choice is to redo the well seal contraption which I'd rather not redo at this time...after looking into it, maybe I should just redo it since its difficult to get all this to match up...adapters and what not...maybe just getting it right will set me up in the future for easier work.

I can't see how they could cement them and then thread them...probably just put cement on after treading to seal maybe?

Which begs the question regarding my previous question, if no pipe dope or Teflon tape is needed do the drop pipe joints leak?

 

[Valveman]

You need a 2” X 1 ¼” threaded bushing and a 2” threaded coupling. Never glue anything down hole, and never glue threaded fittings.

 

[Jfharper]

I began the job today. Everything went well. I pulled 60' of old threaded sch 40 drop pipe out, as well as my 1 hp sub. For the clean out phase of the project, I put 80' of 1.25" pvc pipe carefully down the well with two Ts at the bottom with a water hose and an air line attached at the bottom. The assembly rested on the soft bottom and stuck out about 5' up top...when I began to clean out by turning on my compressor...after building up some air, volumes of water began to shoot out the top which had an elbow to shoot the water horizontally...the volumes at first briefly carried some fine black sediment then very fine sand began to shoot out...the assembly dropped 5' very quickly...I then added 5 more feet of pipe and ran the compressor some more and more fine sand shot out...I also got a couple squirts of fine grey sediment and the assembly dropped another 5' quickly. I stopped for the day because I'm assuming because my casing is pvc that there is a cap at the bottom...but if there is no cap could I be digging deeper then the bottom of the casing? I didn't do much clean out other than what I spoke above and thought I better ask about this before going any further...could there be danger of creating a sink hole 85' down? Or because the sediment/sand is very fine that I'm pulling up could I indeed be successfully cleaning out my well, in which case should I proceed until the assembly drops no more indicating I've found the bottom of the well? The sub has a date code on it that says L81... is that the year it was built 1981?

Btw, I currently have my sub pulled so we are living off our holding tank, so any exbidite in replies is greatly appreciated.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah L81 should mean December "81". That air lift system you rigged up is not likely to dig new hole. I don't think it will hurt to clean it as deep as you can. And if the extra hole stays open, it will help with well storage and recovery. But if you set the pump down in the new hole, it may just get covered up. A shroud would help keep the new hole cleaned out, and it might stay open to that point.

 

[Jfharper]

Yeah L81 should mean December "81". That air lift system you rigged up is not likely to dig new hole. I don't think it will hurt to clean it as deep as you can. And if the extra hole stays open, it will help with well storage and recovery. But if you set the pump down in the new hole, it may just get covered up. A shroud would help keep the new hole cleaned out, and it might stay open to that point.

Great...thanks...then onward I go!

 

[Reach4]

Great...thanks...then onward I go!

Maybe take photos this time, such as sand being ejected.

 

[Jfharper]

Here you go

This is the rig...my windmill helped a lot


1.25" sch 40 pipe going down the casing with two Ts at the bottom, one for water hose (which I did not need but hooked up just in case) the other for air


Turning the compressor on created the air and debris lift

 

[Jfharper]

Stuff I got out on the ground


These are my helpers ( my twins)


And me

 

[DonL]

Very Nice.

You do not see many Windmills any more. They are great, just a bit noisy at times.

Nice Job.


Enjoy.

 

[Jfharper]

Ok, I'm taking a break for lunch...I finished the clean out and removed the clean out rig. It was weird I didn't get any deeper but actually got less deep for some reason. What happened was, in the photos you see the top of the clean out rig a little above the top of the casing...this consists of 80' plus a 6' section...it was cleaning out fine, when the water started to get clearer I stopped, lifted the rig up a bit and replaced the 6' pipe with a ten footer...and dropped it back down to a soft surface...I expected there to be about 4' remaining above the casing top but instead there was much more...I looked down the casing and saw the coupler that marked 80' a little below ground level...when I had the 6' pipe on that coupler was about 5' lower. I turned on the compressor and could not get any air lift, just bubbles sounds...I turned on the water hose and that did nothing...it was strange...i even tried lifting the rig up a few feet to try and get the air lift to work, then drop it back down but that didn't give me any air lift...I couldn't figure it out...the bottom still felt soft, but not as soft as it use to when I had the rig 5' deeper...it was puzzling...I thought maybe this is where I'm supposed to stop and so I did...the clean out was just something I wanted to try...I did get 5' cleaned out, so my sub used to be at 60', water level at 50', now I can drop the sub down 15' since my well is 80' deep at least...giving me 25' water level above sub...is this called well head? I think that will help a lot and last me for a while. I'll keep my clean out rig just in case I need to do this in the future...hopefully I won't. I checked the clean out rig for a clog and found none, there were no kinks in the hose that I saw when I pulled it...oh well...so far so good...I'm happy and I'm now going to put the shroud on the sub, tape everything and drop the sub down...then I'll shock treat the well overnight as a precaution and flush tomorrow and should be good to go. Thanks for everyone's help, advice and encouragement.

 

[Reach4]

Were you running the air compressor pretty open, or were you sometimes building up pressure in the air tank that you released all at once?

Nice pictures. Having the derrick over the well was nice too.

Regarding shocking, you might want to look at http://www.moravecwaterwells.com/disin_test.htm

 

[Jfharper]

As soon as I started running the compressor, volumes of water/sediment started shooting out...I didn't even build up 60 lbs of pressure in the tank...so I started the compressor, ran it for about five minutes before the water started clearing up, then shut the compressor off...the air left in the tank continued to shoot water out until down about 40-20 lbs of pressure...then the volumes stopped...so it didn't take much air at all...so I was running it out right but not at max air production...I never left it on long enough to see where it peaked out at.

Thanks for the link

So, I built the shroud, clamped it, taped it, was sure to be above the sub inlet a few inches at least with the pie shape wedges...I went flush with the sub bottom with the shroud, put the pump centering rubber thing back on, clamped and taped that, ran the wire up and taped the wire periodically, put the new sch 80 1.25" drop in...I went a little tighter than hand tight on the couplers, ran all that carefully down the casing, put my 1.25-2" adapter thing on my weal seal contraption, sealed it and ran a shock treatment in it...I have a 3/4" spigot up stream from a gate valve...the gate is closed cutting off water to the holding tank, but the spigot will allow flow from the sub...I turned the power back on to the sub...and had to turn on the bypass switch to get the sub to turn on...I thought it may turn on if the holding tank float was down...but it was not...when I turned the bypass switch on, I filled a 5 gallon bucket with dirty well water in about 17-18 seconds...that s with the 20 gpm Dole valve on which is before the spigot...so the sub works well with the shroud on...I filled a couple 5 gallon buckets until I smelled chlorine...then shut everything down for overnight...I'll flush this tomorrow and when the water is clean, I'll open the gate to allow water to flow to the holding tank.

I think I'll drop my sub 15', so I'll get a 15' stick from the well driller, have them cut and thread a piece for me, get 15' of wire and a spice kit and drop the sub down 15' sometime in the near future. I didn't drop it yet because I did not know how much clean out I was going to get...so I thought I'd clean out first then get the depth, then get the pipe and set the pump.

 

[Valveman]

You still don't know how much the well will fill back in. Adding 15' maybe too much. I would let the pump down until it tagged bottom, raise it up a couple of feet, then measure how long the new piece of pipe needs to be.

 

[Jfharper]

You still don't know how much the well will fill back in. Adding 15' maybe too much. I would let the pump down until it tagged bottom, raise it up a couple of feet, then measure how long the new piece of pipe needs to be.

Won't the shroud keep it from filling in?

I guess I could buy another 20' stick, attach and drop to bottom...raise back up a couple feet and measure, then take the stick back to the driller so they can thread it for me at my measurement...I can cut it. Or I can have them make me a 5' stick and a 10' stick and pick those up and bring home and see what I can do with those...if 15' is too much, I'll use the 10' stick only...how long would it take for the well to fill back in?

 

[Texas Wellman]

This is a bit unconventional but it's what I'd do in your situation.

If you have a twin-line jet pump you can place a tail-piece on the bottom of the jet about 34 ft long. The water will never be drawn below the intake to the jet and the pump will never out-pump the well. Plus, since the footvalve has a screen on the bottom it will prevent most of the trash from being sucked up. I would place this device as high as you can above the debris in the bottom but in as much water as you can. At least 20-30 ft into the water is where the tail pipe should be.

The pump will never out-pump the well and will balance with the water coming in. If the well makes 5 GPM the pump will pump 5 GPM. No worries about clogging up an expensive submersible or shrouds etc. If need be you can even install another screen over the tail-pipe to keep the mud/sand from clogging the jet if it becomes a problem.

Good luck with your project and keep updating this thread.