Hot water spitting from taps after sitting

[Cudos]

Ok, pain in the ass situation!! about 2 months ago i notice some sputtering from the hot water taps in our cabin, well water with pressure tank and jet pump. I thought maybe our 10 year old hot water heater was going to crap out so I had it replaced with new 40 gal electric.
The sputtering is worse now than before. When we leave for the week and come is when it sputters for about 30 or so (any hot water tap) then its fine so long as are there using hot water, once we leave same problem again. This does NOT happen on the cold water side.

I have checked all lines under cabin and inside for leaks, none. I have tried running and bleeding all hot water taps at the same time to no avail. I obviously have air in the hot water side after the cabins sits for a few days . Air must be getting back in to the hot side but how????!! could it be the check valve on my pressure tank bleeding back?? but why wouldn't the cold water sputter too?
I thought maybe the tank temp was set to high and it was kinda high so I dialed it back to no avail. I've also checked for water in the pressure tank, seems fine, just air came out when I depressed the schrader valve
Local plumber is at a loss. Very irritating!!

ThoughtS

 

[Reach4]

about 2 months ago i notice some sputtering from the hot water taps in our cabin

At first I thought you might mean when the taps are not open, but I now think you are describing air, or other gas, mixed into the hot water. Any smell noted?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Cudos]

At first I thought you might mean when the taps are not open, but I now think you are describing air, or other gas, mixed into the hot water. Any smell noted?

Hi there, no smell of anything from the hot water (air) when I open any of the hot water taps. I'm uploading a pic some corrosion on the jet pump inlet side. Some have suggested that I must have a very small leak that doesn't drip that cause that powdery residue to accumulate. Is it possible its sucking air as well in that area? but then why just the hot water sputtering. When we arrive at the cabin and open a hot water tap it runs cold (no spitting) until the hot water starts to come through then sputters and spit like hell for 20 seconds.

Just to add, I thought maybe a bad check valve allowing water to flow back down towards the well, but I have free flowing well that could not allow that to happen. Water flows freely right to my pump

 

[Plumber69]

Are you shutting the power off to the tank when you leave it?

 

[Cudos]

Are you shutting the power off to the tank when you leave it?

Hi, yes I have always shut the power to the pump off as well as closing the water valve to the pump. I have dome this for years with no issue until recently.

I'm afraid i might not notice a stuck toilet and have running and draining in to my septic while we're away. Or a leak springs up and keeps pumping water out under a cabinet or something.

 

[Phog]

Is there a vacuum breaker anywhere in your hot plumbing? If so this could be the entry point for air. Especially if your check valve to the well system is faulty. Water siphons back into well through check valve; vacuum breaker allows air into hot plumbing.

As a debug step, you could try shutting off the inlet valve to your hot water tank next time you leave, to isolate the hot water plumbing. It might help shed some light on the issue.

 

[Cudos]

Is there a vacuum breaker anywhere in your hot plumbing? If so this could be the entry point for air. Especially if your check valve to the well system is faulty. Water siphons back into well through check valve; vacuum breaker allows air into hot plumbing.

As a debug step, you could try shutting off the inlet valve to your hot water tank next time you leave, to isolate the hot water plumbing. It might help shed some light on the issue.

Hi there thanks for helping, I do not have a vacuum breaker, had to google that lol and don’t have one, I will try shutting off the hot water heater inlet valve next time we leave.
You mentioned you the maybe there might be water siphoning back in to the well, could this still happen if I have an artesian well, I have no pump down my well it just free flows to the cabin pump and tank, in fact if go outside and open the valve on top of my well head the water comes out at about 25-30 gpm , so is it still possible for water to siphon back against incoming pressure from a free flowing well?
Thank you for help!

 

[Phog]

Hi there thanks for helping, I do not have a vacuum breaker, had to google that lol and don’t have one, I will try shutting off the hot water heater inlet valve next time we leave.
You mentioned you the maybe there might be water siphoning back in to the well, could this still happen if I have an artesian well, I have no pump down my well it just free flows to the cabin pump and tank, in fact if go outside and open the valve on top of my well head the water comes out at about 25-30 gpm , so is it still possible for water to siphon back against incoming pressure from a free flowing well?
Thank you for help!

You can get siphoning any time the level of the water table is lower than the level of the house plumbing. Even just a foot or two could do it, in theory. In your case, the water table would be somewhere above the wellhead, but if it's below the house plumbing that's all it takes.

Are you 100% sure there isn't a vacuum breaker somewhere? They can be built into other things, for example many garden hose bibs have an integrated vacuum breaker. One place to look might be your dishwasher water hookup.

Another possibility is a dripping hot water faucet. If the check valve is allowing back siphoning, it will create a negative pressure in your plumbing lines, which will suck in air from anywhere it can. Air sucked into a hot water faucet anywhere in your system would tend to accumulate in the top of your hot water tank.

 

[Cudos]

Wow learning lots here thank you no dish washer, I will have to take a closer look at everything this weekend. Looking for any dripping faucet evidence before turning water on. I only have one outside tap and it looks like this
https://www.discountplumbingoutlet....MIm52Kzuvc3wIVwiCtBh0YKgZCEAQYAiABEgL18_D_BwE

I do have a washer/dryer setup so
I will check those as well for vacuum breaker as well

 

[Cudos]

Wanted to edit last post, you mentioned air would fill the top part of the hot water heater, I do notice when we arrive and I turn on the water I can hear water flowing into the water tank for about 1 - 2 seconds,
I’m assuming I should not hear water flowing in the tank.
Cheers

 

[LLigetfa]

I did not see any mention if a water softener of iron filter but those can introduce air into the lines. Often the reason that only the hot water side spits out air may be two fold. The plumbing to the water heater might skim off air bubbles streaming by. Heating water will drive out en-trained air. This can be observed as bubbles forming when heating a pot of water.

A leak on the intake side of the pump can suck in air yet not leak water. The air may sit on top of the water in the pressure tank and only move forward when the pressure dips down lower than the pressure switch turn on setting.

 

[Cudos]

Thank you for your help, no softener but we do have a wh5 big blue iron filter. I changed the filter on it 3 months ago, I will double check it for leaks, I replace the filter in it about 3 months ago. I do have that corrosion building up on the inlet side of my jet pump, maybe it’s sucking in air there.
All great input here, already way ahead of what I thought I knew. Thankyou all so much!!!!

 

[Phog]

Looking for any dripping faucet evidence before turning water on.

You would only be able to tell when the water is on. Look for leaks coming out of a hot faucet. If you see drips coming out with the water on, then air can also be siphoned back in the other direction with the water off. It does seem suspicious that the problem started around the same time you replaced the filter though. Could be a coincidence, or a clue. Good luck, let us know what you find.

 

[JerryR]

To repeat the question that plumber69 asked. Do you power down the WATER HEATER when you leave for a week? You answered that you turn pump power off but not about the water heater power.

I have a weekend cabin that we own with a well and septic tank. I turn off ball valve from well to house grow pump breakers and turn off water heater power. When I arrive after a while I turn on pump CBs, open ball valve and always run hot water for a minute before powering the water heater to purge any air that may be in the lines.

 

[WorthFlorida]

My first though on this was the water turning to steam with a runaway thermostat or a bad heating element but you replaced the heater. I wrote this all down then I though of something but I find it hard to believe that you could have miss this. I can only assume you power off the water heater when leaving the camp, correct? Is it possible that the water heater tank drains while you are away? Before you turn the power back on do you open a hot water valve to purge the tank of air? If a heating element is exposed to air (not submerged in water) they usually will melt down real quick. If not they get super hot and when the water hits it is changes to steam. On a cold tank the bottom element is on first and it may get covered in water before melting down. This is all a WAG. This just a check off list of possibilities.

It sounds like this is a new problem that started recently and never had this problem before. Correct?

If the pump was sucking air you probably lose prime but with your set up that may not be possible. Is there a spigot between the pump and pressure tank? When your problem occurs, open the spigot and turn on the pump. It is just to see if any air is coming from the pump.

I suspect that the pressure tank is a bladder type. This may have been done, was the pressure tank ever fully drained, pressure checked then turn the pump back on.

From your description of 25-30 gallons/min, what size is the pump? Too much of a pump and not enough back pressure and not enough water on the suction side water at the propeller can cause cativation. I had a irrigation well and if I didn't slightly close off a valve on the output side to create some back pressure, you can hear the cativation. Not sure if this is your problem but when you turn the pump back on after the pressure tank may have totally depleted, there is not enough back pressure on first starting up the pump.

The water heater air problem? Another WAG. Without pictures I assuming that the pipe from the pressure tank runs close to the floor. Somewhere a tee is installed to bring the cold water to the water heater and it goes vertical to the top of the water heater and so does the bubbles of air. I'm assuming that that at the floor level the tee brings the cold water to the home past the tee before going vertical.

A lot of stuff on line about it but it is weird that the cold side doesn't do it.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=iA...0i67j35i39j0i131j0i20i263j0i22i30.EGoTvSO_0AQ

 

[Cudos]

Thanks everyone for stepping up here, to answer a few questions that were asked. No I do not turn the power off to my water heater. I use to do that when we first built and every weekend we would return the hot water reeked of rotten eggs, it was brutal! I eventually discovered that leaving the hot water on rectified this problem. So the new water heater has not been powered off. Now, I may be able to power it off now because when the new water was installed I also had installed a powered titanium anode rod in place of existing rod.
So by all accounts I should be able to turn the power off now without getting the rotten egg smell, assuming the rod is working.

Before anyone thinks maybe this rod is the problem I should remind you that this hot water spitting and sputtering started with my old 10 year old heater. This is why I swapped it out, thought its age caught up with it and it was causing the problem. Problem is now worse with the new tank.

The setup in my cabin is simple,it has been working very well for years without any issue. A couple other things I noticed .
I took a picture of the pressure gauge before we left the weekend prior, it was at 45psi and when we returned this past weekend it was at 45 psi. I have noticed however that when the jet pump is running and it stops at around 48 psi I can see the needle drop by about 3 pounds before it stabilizes . Maybe that is normal???

I am going to try a couple suggestions I received here this weekend. One was turning the inlet water valve to the heater itself off and seeing what happens the weekend after. Seems this will be a process of elimination. I also am seriously thinking of replacing my pressure tank and pump, both of which are over 10 years old (4 season use) . This might seem drastic to some but to me it more proactive. I don't really know the life span of these things. If the tank and pump/pressure switch are not the problem then at least I have piece of mind for another 10 years.

But those will replaced after I've gone the process of elimination. I will also check the WH5 water filter housing for any leaks. I replaced the filter 3 months ago but it wasn't leaking that I noticed. There is a red button on top of the big blue housing, maybe its a bleed valve? will have to research that.

Thanks again to everyone here, and I hope I haven't ignored any ones question, a little overwhelming having so much knowledge fired at ya all at once lol. You guys are great. It's going to take some time to report back, seeing as I only get out on a Friday, leave Sunday, and get to check my results the next Friday, so I will report back (-:

 

[WorthFlorida]

Is it possible to keep the anode rod powered when the power is turned off to the water heater? Perhaps a better way to go.

 

[Cudos]

Is it possible to keep the anode rod powered when the power is turned off to the water heater? Perhaps a better way to go.

Yes anode rod has its own power source. I don't think it matters whether the rod is hot or cold water, so it should work.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks everyone for stepping up here, to answer a few questions that were asked. No I do not turn the power off to my water heater. I use to do that when we first built and every weekend we would return the hot water reeked of rotten eggs, it was brutal! I eventually discovered that leaving the hot water on rectified this problem. So the new water heater has not been powered off. Now, I may be able to power it off now because when the new water was installed I also had installed a powered titanium anode rod in place of existing rod.
So by all accounts I should be able to turn the power off now without getting the rotten egg smell, assuming the rod is working.

Interesting. If the powered anode presented too high of voltage, it could break down the water into hydrogen and oxygen. I was tempted to suggest trying the sputtering water to a flame as a test, but I will not because I worry that there could be an explosive mix. I would hope that the amount would be small, but who knows?

I have noticed however that when the jet pump is running and it stops at around 48 psi I can see the needle drop by about 3 pounds before it stabilizes . Maybe that is normal???

Normal, I think. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....lbs-of-pressure-at-cut-off.67940/#post-504741

I am going to try a couple suggestions I received here this weekend. One was turning the inlet water valve to the heater itself off and seeing what happens the weekend after. Seems this will be a process of elimination. I also am seriously thinking of replacing my pressure tank and pump, both of which are over 10 years old (4 season use) . This might seem drastic to some but to me it more proactive. I don't really know the life span of these things. If the tank and pump/pressure switch are not the problem then at least I have piece of mind for another 10 years.

If the tank does not lose too much air precharge, and it is a diaphragm tank (vs one with an actual bladder), I would not. Your 10 years were not hard on the pump and tank-- maybe a couple years normal use?

But those will replaced after I've gone the process of elimination. I will also check the WH5 water filter housing for any leaks. I replaced the filter 3 months ago but it wasn't leaking that I noticed. There is a red button on top of the big blue housing, maybe its a bleed valve? will have to research that.

I did not look up WH5, but the red button does indeed release the pressure before you unscrew. Often you could just open a faucet, but the button would be important if the filter was between two shutoff valves. Do at least keep an extra o-ring on hand. Use silicone grease lightly on the o-ring when you change cartridges.

 

[Cudos]

Hi Reach4 and thanks, good to hear the pump and tank have probably not been worm as much as I thought. I do always lightly grease the "new" o-ring when the filter has been changed, I will have to confirm if the filter housing is indeed between 2 shut off valves. As for anode producing hydrogen and oxygen I wouldn't be able to smell it if I got right close to it while the tap started sputtering would I??? not a fan of the match idea lol. Although I could use a bigger cabin (-: