Help with pressure tank - Jumps at 60psi

[mikeee321]

Your pressure switch is too far from the pressure tank. Thats why the hammer is so severe. Moving it as close as you can to the tank will alleviate it, but probably not eliminate it.

Listen to Valveman if you want to get rid of it, and the big repair bills that will soon come if you don’t

Sorry if im missing something, but i have two pressure tanks. The blue well pump and the gray one (signature 2000) in the lower left side. Both have pressure switches. The second is there to repressurize the water after the aeration tank

 

[mikeee321]

What is that pictured system doing? It looks like you have a pressure tank and pressure switch over in the corner, and I suspect that one is fed from the well.

Or is the well feeding the system closer to the camera?

Correct, the well (which has its own pressure switch) feeds to the water filtration stuff in the corner, sprays to the big black tank via aeration, then uses the grey tank and pressure switch to get repressurized. Prior home owner came up with it

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Apologies. In the corner is my well tank it feeds into my water filtration system, water softener, ph neutralizer then to an aeration tank (big black thing). It then needs to be pressurized again by a signature 2000 unit which is the focus of the video

A still photo that includes the pressure tank, and the pipe leading from the atmospheric tank, and the pressure switch will probably help lead to a cure.

 

[FredG]

Sorry if im missing something, but i have two pressure tanks. The blue well pump and the gray one (signature 2000) in the lower left side. Both have pressure switches. The second is there to repressurize the water after the aeration tank

Where does the water from the well come into the basement?

 

[mikeee321]

A still photo that includes the pressure tank, and the pipe leading from the atmospheric tank, and the pressure switch will probably help lead to a cure.

Sorry for the bad writing in blue, it says from well. I started mocking up the picture for how the water flows but it got crazy. I can do it if it'll help. Thanks!

 

[mikeee321]

Where does the water from the well come into the basement?

The well pumps in blue where the water comes in

 

[FredG]

Then the pressure switch is close enough. I was looking at the other one.

 

[mikeee321]

Sorry for the bad writing in blue, it says from well. I started mocking up the picture for how the water flows but it got crazy. I can do it if it'll help. Thanks!

Let me know if you need any additional pictures

 

[Valveman]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, based on my setup where would I put the CSV?

The Cycle Stop Valve, which will solve your problem, would be installed between the black cistern tank and the tee to the pressure switch and gauge. The CSV1A could replace that tee, as it has outlets for the pressure switch, gauge, and pressure relief valve. If the tank is bad, and it is not a good one to start with, then I would install a PK1A with the 5 gallon size tank in place of the tee with the switch and gauge. Or a CSV125 could be installed inside the cistern on top of the check valve on the pump.

CSV1A CYCLE STOP VALVE

Compare to the Competition Model CSV1A CYCLE STOP VALVE is recommended for 1 to 25 gpm and is adjustable from 15 psi to 150 psi. It is a stainless steel valve with a molded thermoplastic spring cage. It also has three additional ports (2 - 1/2" and 1- 3/4") and can be used as a pressure tank...

cyclestopvalves.com

Custom PK1A PSIDE-KICK Pressure Tank Kit

Replaces large pressure tanks. Preset and easy to install for the DIY customer. The pside-kick kit is a complete constant pressure control package for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. This kit comes with everything you see and utilizes a mechanical pressure switch.

cyclestopvalves.com

CSV125-1 Cycle Stop Valve

Compare to the Competition Model CSV125 is a CYCLE STOP VALVE recommended for 2HP and smaller pumps. It has 1 1/4" female threads. The psi is preset (choose below) and is not adjustable. It is a molded thermoplastic valve. This model has an attached red coupling designed to allow the valve to be...

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[mikeee321]

The Cycle Stop Valve, which will solve your problem, would be installed between the black cistern tank and the tee to the pressure switch and gauge. The CSV1A could replace that tee, as it has outlets for the pressure switch, gauge, and pressure relief valve. If the tank is bad, and it is not a good one to start with, then I would install a PK1A with the 5 gallon size tank in place of the tee with the switch and gauge. Or a CSV125 could be installed inside the cistern on top of the check valve on the pump.

CSV1A CYCLE STOP VALVE

Compare to the Competition Model CSV1A CYCLE STOP VALVE is recommended for 1 to 25 gpm and is adjustable from 15 psi to 150 psi. It is a stainless steel valve with a molded thermoplastic spring cage. It also has three additional ports (2 - 1/2" and 1- 3/4") and can be used as a pressure tank...

cyclestopvalves.com

Custom PK1A PSIDE-KICK Pressure Tank Kit

Replaces large pressure tanks. Preset and easy to install for the DIY customer. The pside-kick kit is a complete constant pressure control package for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. This kit comes with everything you see and utilizes a mechanical pressure switch.

cyclestopvalves.com

CSV125-1 Cycle Stop Valve

Compare to the Competition Model CSV125 is a CYCLE STOP VALVE recommended for 2HP and smaller pumps. It has 1 1/4" female threads. The psi is preset (choose below) and is not adjustable. It is a molded thermoplastic valve. This model has an attached red coupling designed to allow the valve to be...

cyclestopvalves.com

View attachment 107260

Hi, just to be 100% sure it would be going to where I'm pointing to in red? The water does go out to the house going upwards after the UV light

 

[Valveman]

Correct.

 

[Fitter30]

There is on the other side of the black tank which fills the tank

I'm not familiar with your set up. Don't know what activities that valve to cycle it and another to watch that gauge.

 

[FredG]

Correct.

Shouldn’t the csv go before the blue well x tank? It looks to me like that’s the main pressure tank right after the water comes in from the pump. He marked it as blue squiggles in some of the pics.

 

[Bannerman]

There should only be air in the bladder, not water so it should never get overstretched. The water normally is outside of the bladder.

From an online search (Pentair is listed as the source): "A Signature 2000 pressure tank (manufactured by Sta-Rite/Pentair) contains water within the bladder (often called an air cell or water cell) and compressed air in the space between the bladder and the tank shell."

An insufficient air pre-charge would therefore result in the bladder becoming overstretched and more prone to premature failure.

 

[Bannerman]

Your photos show you are utilizing two water supply systems. The well pump, is controlled by the pressure switch placed on the tank Tee located directly infront of the blue Well-X-Trol pressure tank. That system seems to be working correctly as nothing related to that system is the reason for this thread.

As the previously requested photo clearly indicating the water path has not been provided, it appears the well system is routed through some manner of water filtration/softening equipment before entering the black cistern located on the left side of the larger photo.

As you said in post #20 "There is on the other side of the black tank which fills the tank", I suspect your reply to Fitter maybe referring to a solenoid valve located on the opposite side of the cistern. If so, that valve is likely controlled by float switches within the cistern, to limit the minimum and maximum level of the water within the cistern.

As no pump is apparent after the cistern, it would then seem there is a submersible pump (brand, model?) installed within the cistern, which is controlled by the pressure switch shown externally near the top of the cistern. Water exiting from the cistern is then Tee'd in one direction to the Signature 2000 pressure tank and in the opposite direction to the inlet port of a UV lamp unit which is intended to sanitize the water before being supplied to household fixtures.

A submersible pump utilized in that configuration, is usually capable of a substantially higher flow rate than will be typically utilzed in a single family residence. If the pump is capable of 12 gpm, but only 3 gpm is flowing to a single shower head, then the excess 9 gpm will flow into the pressure tank, causing pressure at the pressure switch to rapidly rise to 60 psi, thereby resulting in the pump being frequently cycled ON/OFF repeatedly during normal water use.

I suspect the UV system has also contributed to pump cycling, particularly whenever the flow rate to fixtures was highest. The 3/4" supply connections both before and after the UV filter, seem to have been reduced to what appears to be 1/2" diameter. When a higher flow rate to fixtures is needed, the reduced diameter, will restrict the flow rate that can pass through, thereby resulting in the pressure at the PS to rise rapidly while the pump is operating, causing the PS to shut off the pump frequently even while a higher amount of flow continues to be needed at fixtures.

Valveman specified the reason for water hammer on shutdown in post #9, and also the cause of pressure tank bladder failure in post #11. Even with replacing the PT, expect continued excessive cycling will result in further water hammer issues and future premature tank failures. The CSV recommmended, will prevent the pump from cycling, since the CSV will reduce the flow rate from the pump to always match the actual rate of rate of water consumption, thereby keeping the pump running for the entire time 1 GPM or greater is being utilized. Once no water is further needed, the CSV will then continue filling the PT at only 1 gpm, causing the pump's check valve to be barely open, and so the CV will close more gently once the pump becomes shut down.

Although a CSV will allow the 1/2" UV unit to continue to be utilized without cycling, a 3/4" or 1" UV filter will usually be more effective, particularly while the flow rate to fixtures is high. UV filters function by exposing bacteria to UV light for a sufficient length of time for bacteria neutralization to occur. By using a UV filter that is too small, flow velocity past the UV lamp will be too high, resulting in insufficient UV exposure, so some bacteria may continue to pass through the filter without becoming fully neutralized. A larger 3/4" or 1" UV unit will be equipped with a higher output, longer length UV lamp, which will provide increased UV exposure even while the flow rate to fixtures is higher than usual.

 

[Reach4]

A UV sterilizer is supposed to have a 5 micron or finer cartridge filter in front of it, to avoid particles that could shade a bacterium.

Question: on the movie clip, how much flow was there thru the UV? 5 gpm? 0.5 gpm? 0.0 gpm?

If flow is low, such as stopping water usage before the pump cuts off, is the discontinuity in pressure as intense?

 

[Bannerman]

UV sterilizer is supposed to have a 5 micron or finer cartridge filter in front of it, to avoid particles that could shade a bacterium.

I see a blue object protruding slightly above the backside of the cistern. That could be the top of a cartridge filter housing which is further filtering the water before it enters the cistern??? IDK.

how much flow was there thru the UV? 5 gpm? 0.5 gpm? 0.0 gpm?

Since the UV unit is located on the supply line exiting from the cistern's pump and pressure tank, when there is 0 flow to fixtures, the flow rate through the UV unit should then be 0 gpm. If multiple fixtures are all flowing water at the same time, the flow rate attempting to pass through the UV unit could be 8 gpm or more.

In reviewing the flow rate for various UV units shown on a local distributor's web site, a larger Viqua 1/2" unit is shown rated for up to 3.5 gpm. Also shown is a 3/4" model of the same brand, rated for up to 5 gpm, and several 1" models rated at 9 gpm, 18 gpm and 30 gpm depending on the UV lamp length.

I suspect much of the water we continue to hear in the video after the pump becomes shut off at 60, is probably water filling the cistern from the well system to replace the water that had been pumped out.

 

[mikeee321]

From an online search (Pentair is listed as the source): "A Signature 2000 pressure tank (manufactured by Sta-Rite/Pentair) contains water within the bladder (often called an air cell or water cell) and compressed air in the space between the bladder and the tank shell."

An insufficient air pre-charge would therefore result in the bladder becoming overstretched and more prone to premature failure.

Interesting find! When I drained the system, there was no water in the tank (or air, but i fixed that with an air compressor)