Help with pressure tank - Jumps at 60psi

[mikeee321]

Hi all,

I was looking for help with my signature 2000, pressure tank. When the pressure hits 60, the needle takes a big jump and makes a noticeable shake/noise and goes to 58. I pulled the plug drained everything to check the pressure which did read zero. I pumped it back up to 38 psi, and it appeared to hold. Unfortunately it didn't make much of a difference. Here's a video of what's happening

https://imgur.com/a/yJvYf0p

 

[FredG]

Looks like water hammer to me.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

Check to make sure it cuts on at 40. Spiking at 60 often happens if there is not enough air precharge in the tank. Does your pressure tank have a dome limiter? Make sure the air pressure gauge and water pressure gauge read the same pressure. Another possibility is there is a bad c check valve in the line.

 

[mikeee321]

Looks like water hammer to me.

Right, assuming it's being caused by a failed pressure tank?

 

[Bannerman]

An online search for 'Signature 2000' indicates that pressure tank is equipped with a fiberglass shell, and also a bladder, not a diaphram.

With 0 psi pre-charge, the bladder will have been overstretched, which will often result in the bladder becoming torn. You said 'pumped it back up to 38 psi, and it appeared to hold.' Suggest deactivating the pump and re-draining the pressure tank to again check the tank's air precharge pressure. While it may have initially appeared to sucessfully hold 38 psi, a torn bladder will often seal off the tank's water port, thereby preventing the air above the bladder from being immediately discharged out into the water system. Once the pump is reactivated and water begins to enter the tank's water chamber, the bladder will be pushed away from the water port, permittting the air and water to mix, resulting in some air escaping with the water exiting the tank during water use..

Although it's possible to replace a torn bladder, its more common to simply replace the entire tank.

The bounce of the pressure gauge suggests a water hammer issue. Water hammer is often the result of the use of too many check valves in the system. Suggest posting a more complete photo of your system which will clearly show the complete water path, including placement of any check valve(s) and other devices.

The placement of the pressure switch is also not conventional as the PS is normally located as close as possible to the tank connection.

 

[mikeee321]

An online search for 'Signature 2000' indicates that pressure tank is equipped with a fiberglass shell, and also a bladder, not a diaphram.

With 0 psi pre-charge, the bladder will have been overstretched, which will often result in the bladder becoming torn. You said 'pumped it back up to 38 psi, and it appeared to hold.' Suggest deactivating the pump and re-draining the pressure tank to again check the tank's air precharge pressure. While it may have initially appeared to sucessfully hold 38 psi, a torn bladder will often seal off the tank's water port, thereby preventing the air above the bladder from being immediately discharged out into the water system. Once the pump is reactivated and water begins to enter the tank's water chamber, the bladder will be pushed away from the water port, permittting the air and water to mix, resulting in some air escaping with the water exiting the tank during water use..

Although it's possible to replace a torn bladder, its more common to simply replace the entire tank.

The bounce of the pressure gauge suggests a water hammer issue. Water hammer is often the result of the use of too many check valves in the system. Suggest posting a more complete photo of your system which will clearly show the complete water path, including placement of any check valve(s) and other devices.

The placement of the pressure switch is also not conventional as the PS is normally located as close as possible to the tank connection.

Thanks so much for the reply. I'll drain again and check the pressure to see if it holds. I'm ok with replacing the whole tank as long as that's the issue and i'm not just throwing money away The well tank is in blue, flows to my water filtration system, then needs to get repressurized again after the aeration tank and goes out to my indirect water heater, my boiler (pointed to in red by arrow), and to my fixtures.

 

[mikeee321]

Check to make sure it cuts on at 40. Spiking at 60 often happens if there is not enough air precharge in the tank. Does your pressure tank have a dome limiter? Make sure the air pressure gauge and water pressure gauge read the same pressure. Another possibility is there is a bad c check valve in the line.

Thanks for the reply. It does turn on around 40 goes to 60, then makes an aggressive sound, the needle jumps and stops at 58. I honestly don't know about a dome limiter? i posted a couple more pictures of my setup below. All pressure should be around 40-50, but i can confirm.

 

[LLigetfa]

With 0 psi pre-charge, the bladder will have been overstretched, which will often result in the bladder becoming torn.

There should only be air in the bladder, not water so it should never get overstretched. The water normally is outside of the bladder.

That said. if a hole develops in the bladder, water can enter it displacing the air.

 

[Valveman]

Even a perfectly "sized", pre-charged, and functioning tank cannot stop water hammer. Having more than one check valve causes water hammer on pump start, not pump stop. Water hammer on pump stop is because the pump is putting 15-20 GPM into the tank, causing the check valve to be wide open when the pump shuts off. The closure in the check valve will have to move backwards about an inch to close. This causes all the water from the tank to the pump to go backwards and inch as well. When the check valve closes, all the weight of the water hits it like a locomotive hitting a mountain. The water hammer you see, hear, and feel is the result.

Every time the pump cycles off the check valve is slammed shut. It causes water hammer even if you can't see it. The pressure tank at the other end of the pipe cushions the blow for the gauge and switch, but water hammer still happens every time the pump shuts off. Multiple check valves will cause water hammer every time the pump cycles on. It just gets worse and worse over time as everything in the system is getting hammered over and over.

Simply adding a Cycle Stop Valve on the inlet side of the pressure tank will solve the hammer problem and many others. The CSV fills the last gallon or two in the tank at a rate of 1 GPM. At 1 GPM the check valve is only open the thickness of a piece of paper and there is no water hammer when it closes on pump shut off, giving the pump a mechanical soft stop. Larger CSV's also start the pump at a tiny flow rate, giving them a mechanical soft start as well. But soft start of any kind is not needed for small systems as long as there is only one check valve on the pump.

The CSV keeps the check valve from failing, so redundancy is unnecessary. The CSV also prevents failure of the tank bladder/diaphragm, pressure switch, and most importantly the pump/motor itself. Cycling destroys nearly every pump and pump system component, which is why pump manufacturers and most installers won't mention a CSV at all, much less favorable. Lol!

I guarantee adding a CSV will solve this problem. And, if you also need a new tank, the CSV will be fine with as small as a 5 gallon size tank.

 

[LLigetfa]

Although it's possible to replace a torn bladder, its more common to simply replace the entire tank.

From the manual:
ReplaceableAirCell-Withthe tank installed! Air cell access is via a top mount design. Generous and accessible air cell opening facilitates easy removable and re-installation of replacement air cell (with the profes- . sional contractor in mind).

 

[Valveman]

From the manual:
ReplaceableAirCell-Withthe tank installed! Air cell access is via a top mount design. Generous and accessible air cell opening facilitates easy removable and re-installation of replacement air cell (with the profes- . sional contractor in mind).

Any tank that has a replaceable "air cell" is because it will fail often. Any part of the bladder that touches the tank will be the place of the next hole or tear. Only diaphragm tanks made where the diaphragm cannot touch the tank as it moves up and down will survive the cycling of the pump.

 

[mikeee321]

Even a perfectly "sized", pre-charged, and functioning tank cannot stop water hammer. Having more than one check valve causes water hammer on pump start, not pump stop. Water hammer on pump stop is because the pump is putting 15-20 GPM into the tank, causing the check valve to be wide open when the pump shuts off. The closure in the check valve will have to move backwards about an inch to close. This causes all the water from the tank to the pump to go backwards and inch as well. When the check valve closes, all the weight of the water hits it like a locomotive hitting a mountain. The water hammer you see, hear, and feel is the result.

Every time the pump cycles off the check valve is slammed shut. It causes water hammer even if you can't see it. The pressure tank at the other end of the pipe cushions the blow for the gauge and switch, but water hammer still happens every time the pump shuts off. Multiple check valves will cause water hammer every time the pump cycles on. It just gets worse and worse over time as everything in the system is getting hammered over and over.

Simply adding a Cycle Stop Valve on the inlet side of the pressure tank will solve the hammer problem and many others. The CSV fills the last gallon or two in the tank at a rate of 1 GPM. At 1 GPM the check valve is only open the thickness of a piece of paper and there is no water hammer when it closes on pump shut off, giving the pump a mechanical soft stop. Larger CSV's also start the pump at a tiny flow rate, giving them a mechanical soft start as well. But soft start of any kind is not needed for small systems as long as there is only one check valve on the pump.

The CSV keeps the check valve from failing, so redundancy is unnecessary. The CSV also prevents failure of the tank bladder/diaphragm, pressure switch, and most importantly the pump/motor itself. Cycling destroys nearly every pump and pump system component, which is why pump manufacturers and most installers won't mention a CSV at all, much less favorable. Lol!

I guarantee adding a CSV will solve this problem. And, if you also need a new tank, the CSV will be fine with as small as a 5 gallon size tank.

View attachment 107248

Thanks for taking the time to reply, based on my setup where would I put the CSV?

 

[mikeee321]

From the manual:
ReplaceableAirCell-Withthe tank installed! Air cell access is via a top mount design. Generous and accessible air cell opening facilitates easy removable and re-installation of replacement air cell (with the profes- . sional contractor in mind).

The tank is an older signature 2000 model, I wonder if i could even get parts for it?

 

[Reach4]

What is that pictured system doing? It looks like you have a pressure tank and pressure switch over in the corner, and I suspect that one is fed from the well.

Or is the well feeding the system closer to the camera?

 

[mikeee321]

What is that pictured system doing? It looks like you have a pressure tank and pressure switch over in the corner, and I suspect that one is fed from the well.

Or is the well feeding the system closer to the camera?

Sorry for the confusion, the pictures are posted as follow ups, the issue is in the video. When my tank hits around 60 psi, there's a jump in the gauge and there's a sort of a bang. Trying to determine if its my tank or something else.

 

[Reach4]

Sorry for the confusion, the pictures are posted as follow ups, the issue is in the video. When my tank hits around 60 psi, there's a jump in the gauge and there's a sort of a bang. Trying to determine if its my tank or something else.

Confusion remains.

What is that pictured system doing? What is that system in the corner doing?

Is that pictured pressure switch teed into the big black thing behind it.?

Pressure switches belong at pressure tanks.

 

[Fitter30]

Think there's a valve chattering. Is there a solenoid valve that I'm not seeing? Ex tank wouldn't make a gauge jump like that.

 

[mikeee321]

Confusion remains.

What is that pictured system doing? What is that system in the corner doing?

Is that pictured pressure switch teed into the big black thing behind it.?

Pressure switches belong at pressure tanks.

Apologies. In the corner is my well tank it feeds into my water filtration system, water softener, ph neutralizer then to an aeration tank (big black thing). It then needs to be pressurized again by a signature 2000 unit which is the focus of the video

 

[FredG]

Your pressure switch is too far from the pressure tank. Thats why the hammer is so severe. Moving it as close as you can to the tank will alleviate it, but probably not eliminate it.

Listen to Valveman if you want to get rid of it, and the big repair bills that will soon come if you don’t.

 

[mikeee321]

Think there's a valve chattering. Is there a solenoid valve that I'm not seeing? Ex tank wouldn't make a gauge jump like that.

There is on the other side of the black tank which fills the tank