HELP - Thanksgiving Night Leak - Broken solder joint on heating convector

[saabturbodrivr]

Hello,

I have a leak coming from what appears to be a broken solder joint on the output (return?) pipe that leaves one end of an upstairs bedroom heating convector. These are monoflow hot water recessed convectors.

I tried to turn off the valve on the convector...it does not seem to work.

It's 20 degrees out, turning off the water to the heating system is not an option.

It is leaking into the wall below...the ceiling in the covered porch below is full of water/ice. It is cantilevered out ever so slightly from the first floor wall, but I'm still worried it will travel into there.

My heating company won't come for an emergency that is a "plumbing issue". All stores seem to be closed...if I can find a store open, is there any product I can put on that broken joint, while it is wet and leaking, that will actually work? I have had no luck getting in touch with a plumber tonight...that will have to wait until tomorrow it seems.

Thanks for any advice you can give!!!

Alex

 

[saabturbodrivr]

Additional info...

Apparently the on/off valve for the covector DOES work...but it does not do what I expected it to do.

I've had it off a while and the radiator is ice cold...and still was leaking.

I just turned it on and the radiator immediately become hot and I heard a little bubbling.

On a monoflow convector, would water still be passing through that exit pipe with the convector turned off??

Anyway, just looking for something I can do until I can get a plummer in here...I feel helpless as my home is being damaged.

Thanks!

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

Do you have a neighbor, every street does, that has about every tool know to man. That neighbor maybe able to help you out if he has a torch.

If you have a two zone heating system with two circulation pumps, you can disconnect power to the pump for that area and maybe shut off the water to that zone. 20 degree night this time of the year is not like in the middle of January. The ground is not frozen and the exterior walls have not chilled down as much. With the heat off I doubt you'll have anything freeze over night. BTW... have you shut off your outside spigots and removed any garden hose with freeze proof spigots?

If the pipe came out of the sweat joint you probably can push it back into the fitting. If possible try to use tape or a zip tie to hold it in place. Wrapping tape around the pipe won't work. Need to have some pressure pushing onto the fitting. I'll probably still leak a little but better than pouring out. If you have vise grip, you can use it too ever so slightly squeezing the joint to hold it in place. But do not crush it. If you do it make thing worse and perhaps more costly to repair. If you can get the pipe to stay a little duct tape around the fitting may slow the leak to a drip and use a pail to catch any water.

Do you have any epoxy glue? If really necessary, dry the pipe fitting and pipe, smear epoxy glue on the pipe and insert it into the fitting and hold it for a while with pressure. Let it set up for about an hour, even if its 5 minute epoxy. Again try pushing something to keep pressure on the pipe after the glue dries.

 

[Jadnashua]

You cannot solder a joint while there is water in the pipe. If I understand how they work, a monoflow system, the inlet shutoff will still have the whole thing pressurized since the outlet T is still in the system. The shutoff will prevent flow caused by the scoop on the monoflow T feeding it from flowing through the radiator, but it's still connected to the supply and pressurized.

The only way to fix a poor (failed) solder joint is to take it apart, clean it up completely, add flux, slide it back together and resolder it. You won't be able to get it hot enough to resolder if there is any water in the joint, so that means shutting off, and draining at least part of your system.

You might be able to wrap something around the pipe to slow down the leak, but you will not get anything to seal it. Note, as your system is losing water, unless you have an autofill system, it will eventually (fairly quickly) lose enough water to shut itself down.

 

[WorthFlorida]

I was offering a patch to get through the night.

 

[saabturbodrivr]

Thanks guys!

I have my heating company coming to look at it momentarily. They said they dont really do plumbing, but depending what is required, they may be able to do it...I'd take a fix to hold me until a plumber comes.

Local plumbers, most of them are not working today and said to call the heating company. Some said to call back if they can't help me and they will see what they can do.

The system is auto-feed...granted I could turn off the supply of course...but its 17 degrees this morning.

We'll see how it goes this morning...I will try the suggested temp fix if I have to.

 

[WorthFlorida]

A heating tech should be able to resolder copper. It’ll be just getting the water out that that can be hassle. If you have a shop vac you can suck most of it out.

Another better patch is get a length of 7/8 “ heater hose at a auto store and two hose clamps. Insert the ends of the pipe into the hose and clamp it. I assume the pipe is 3/4” copper which .875”.

 

[saabturbodrivr]

So the guy from the heating company repaired the leak. In doing so, a leak was created on the other side (input side). Also, the convector failed to heat after the repair (all others heated up just fine, and convector in question is the first on the system).

So, he re-drained the system and addressed the leak on the supply side. In removing the on/off valve, he observed it working just fine, so he re-installed it and completed the leak repair.

We still were not able to get heat into that convector. Very strange. The leaks appear to be fixed. But, he left and suggested getting a plumber to look at replacing the convector unit.

What could have happened between yesterday and today? This convector has had issues with air, but always heated up well after a bleeding. (As an aside, he also installed a self-bleeder when he had the system drained.)

 

[Sylvan]

Every single hot water heating system I installed the valves were meant for these systems

Meaning the valves have a small opening built in so unlike a steam valve fully open or fully closed they hot water systems can be modulated | but never fully closed.

The reason being so there is a constant flow through the convector /radiators to help prevent freeze ups

 

[Jadnashua]

If one of the T's was removed and then reinstalled, assuming it's a mon0flow T, putting it in backwards will prevent heat from going into the convector. So will substituting a 'plain' T instead. A monoflow T has a scoop in it to direct water in the proper direction.

FWIW, a properly prepared and soldered connection doesn't really break. It wasn't done right the first time.

 

[saabturbodrivr]

If one of the T's was removed and then reinstalled, assuming it's a mon0flow T, putting it in backwards will prevent heat from going into the convector. So will substituting a 'plain' T instead. A monoflow T has a scoop in it to direct water in the proper direction.

FWIW, a properly prepared and soldered connection doesn't really break. It wasn't done right the first time.

To be honest, I probably at least partially caused that solder connection to break...

That radiator has always been a problem...needing to be bled every 3 weeks or so. I noticed that the bleed side was pitched lower than the supply side. There was some play in the pipes. If I simply yanked up on section of fins, I could tilt it enough to get more air out. I bled that radiator the night before I noticed the leak. I probably stressed that joint.


Anyway, with the leak fixed, the current problem is figuring out why that radiator is now ice cold. Heating company guy gave up at that point and said we need a new convector element and to contact a plumber...which I will do on Monday.

The house has the original 1960 Paragon boiler, poor (no) air removal built into the design, and these monoflow recessed convectors. I get some kind of trouble every year. Thinking if it is time to upgrade..... The boiler itself is reliable enough...just not very efficient, and it creates a lot of air.

 

[Jadnashua]

A properly done solder joint won't leak if you stress it...the solder is almost as strong as copper. A cold or otherwise poor solder joint can occur if either the parts aren't properly cleaned, insufficient or no flux was used, it was overheated during the soldering process charring the flux, the fitting wasn't heated properly to draw in the solder, or insufficient solder was applied. IOW, while there are a bunch of reasons it may not be good, it isn't all that hard once you get the hang of it if you have good workmanship. One aspect that can make it harder is if there's poor access where you may not be able to observe the joint well during the process.

Probably the biggest reason why a unit may not get any flow is trapped air. On some systems, that can be a pain to get all of the air out.