Help Specing Replacement Boiler

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Reicherb

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I'm looking for help replacing what I believe to be an original to the house 1968 Weil Mclain PD7 boiler. I'd like to replace the boiler, zone valves and all related equipment.

The current boiler has an output of 120,000 BTU. I'm sure that's way over kill but I don't know how to determine what I need.

I live in central Michigan and specs on the house are:
Zone 1:
Semi finished basement
836 square feet
Family Area - 11' of baseboard registers
Scrapbook Room - 5' of baseboard registers
Laundry Room - 8' of baseboard registers

Zone 2:
1st Floor
836 square feet over basement and 140 square foot on a slab
Bathroom - 5' of baseboard registers
Mud Room - 6' of baseboard registers
Kitchen - 0' of baseboard registers
Dining Room - 8' of baseboard registers
Play Room - 21' of baseboard registers
Living Room - 12' of baseboard registers
Hallway - 6' of baseboard registers

Zone 3:
2nd Floor
836 square feet
Bathroom - 5' of baseboard registers
Master bedroom - 25' of baseboard registers
Bedroom 2 - 20' of baseboard registers
Bedroom 3 - 20' of baseboard registers
Office - 10' of baseboard registers


Can you please help me select a boiler brand, model and size?

Attached are pictures of the current boiler.

Thanks for your help.

Brad
 

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Reicherb

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I should add that the boiler is still functioning but at 50 years of age, maybe not for a lot longer and certainly a new unit would be cheaper to operate.
 

Dana

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First thing to do is to pull together some wintertime gas bills, and note the EXACT meter reading dates & amounts, then run a fuel-use load calculation as described here, which uses the boiler as the measuring instrument, based on it's 80% output/input nameplate efficinecy. The 99% outside design temperatures in central MI run in the low- single digits, so if a nearby city isn't listed, guess, but 0F would be the lowest (even though yes, it gets a LOT colder than that sometimes.) When you know the load at the 99th percentile we can pick a boiler with a reasonable rather than ridiculous oversize factor that will cover your load.

The total amount of fin-tube baseboard by zone seems to be about 24' in the basement, 58' on the first floor, 80' on the second floor, or about 160' total for the whole house. When you divide the calculated 99% load by the total baseboard it'll be possible to estimate the water temperatures needed to emit that much heat. If the basement isn't a walk-out and is normally not fully heated there will be some adjustments to make, but that's a fine-tuning point.

At 170F average water temperature (AWT), or 180F out of the boiler, 160F returning from the baseboard, the baseboards deliver about 500 BTU/hr per running foot. So with 160' of baseboard you only have enough baseboard to emit 160' x 500 BTU/foot-hour= 80,000 BTU/hr, so the existing boiler is already 50% oversized even for the radiation, and probably ~3x oversized for the actual 99% load, but run the numbers to find out.

With 58' and 80' of baseboard on the primary zones you're probably a good candidate for a condensing boiler, but we can analyze that when the load information is better known. With fin-tube baseboard the output becomes non-linear and bit unpredicatable at boiler temps lower than about 120F, but that is still well into the condensing zone. At an AWT of 120F (125F out, 115F back) most boilers would be running in the low-mid 90s for efficiency, and the baseboard would be delivering about 200 BTU/hr per running foot. So the 58' zone would be capable of emitting ~11-12,000 BTU/hr @ 120F AWT, so a modulating condensing boiler that can modulate down to under 12,000 BTU/hr would be needed to limit short-cycling during the spring and autumn shoulder seasons. There are several boilers that can deliver more than 70,000 BTU/hr at high fire, and modulate to under 10,000 BTU/hr, but there are many that can't. But you probably don't need 70K to heat the house even at Polar Vortex coolth, something that can be determined by the fuel use load calculation.

The 24' basement zone can only emit 4800 BTU/hr at an AWT of 120F, so going with a boiler with even less output at low fire would be necessary to avoid excessive cycling during the shoulder seasons, or more radiation could be added. But let's see where the load numbers come in first.

If going with cast iron, something with no more than about 1.4x the 99% heat load would be appropriate. If going that low means the average water temperatures with 160' of baseboard would yield return water temperatures less than 140F it affects the near-boiler plumbing design, but it's not a big deal. (That would be a boiler with ~50,000 BTU/hr of output or lower.)
 

NY_Rob

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When you measured your radiators, only the section inside the enclosure with actual fin-tube is counted. You may have a 10' enclosure with only 5' of fin-tube inside it. Of course if you have cast iron baseboard you count the full length less end caps and corner covers.
 

Reicherb

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I have opened a few of the baseboard registers and so far the length of the fit tube matches the length of the cover.
The basement is not a walk out.
I'm not sure it means anything but the 2nd floor zone runs very infrequently because the heat rising from the 1st floor generally keeps it up to temperature.

Here is my math. Please make sure I've done it correctly.
12/1/2017 - 1/3/2018 we used 226 therms
The 99% outside design temperature is 3° (though it hit -15° in the date range above)
The boiler is 80% efficient (150,000 in, 120,000 out)
We therefore used 18.08 MMBTU

The sum up the daily base 65°F heating degree days is 1456.1 which is an average of 517 BTU per degree-hour
The load therefore is 32076 BTU/hr
With a ASHRAE 1.4x sizing factor, the need is 44907

The sum up the daily base 60°F heating degree days is 1456.1 which is an average of 585 BTU per degree-hour
The load therefore is 33387 BTU/hr
With a ASHRAE 1.4x sizing factor, the need is 46742

I assume based on these calculations, I need a boiler with an output of 50,000 BTU. Does this all sound correct?

Thanks!

Brad
 

Dana

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18,080,000 BTU/1456 HDD= 12,418 BTU per degree-day.

12,418/24 hour= 517 BTU/degree-hour.

65F- 3F= 62 heating degrees, x 517 BTU/hr degree-hour = an implied load of ~32,000 BTU/hr.

Looks right to me! (Same with the base 60F numbers.)

The ASHRAE multipler is really a maximum when looking at cast-iron- you won't freeze if the boiler only puts out 40,000 BTU/hr. At 40K you're fully covered for 40,000 / 517= 77 heating degrees, or an outdoor temp of about 65F -77F = -12F before it begins to lose ground.

Given that the existing boiler is nearly 4x oversized and ancient it's not really operating at it's original nameplate efficiency, so your actual BTU/degree-hour constants are less than that. Odds are pretty good that the heat load with a right-sized boiler operating at the full rated combustion efficiency, with lower standby & distribution losses would come in between 25-30K.

So if going for another cast-iron beast, keep it under 50K-out (if you can), but you will need to either side-vent it or install an narrowing flue liner to go with cast-iron that small- the current flue is almost certainly going to be WAY too fat to not have condensation or back drafting issues. It will also need to have some protection against condensing entering water temperatures when all zones are calling for heat. 50,000 / 150' is 330 BTU/hr per running foot, which will balance at about 140F average water temp (AWT), which means the return water is likely to be under 130F, edging into the range where corrosive condensation can take place inside the boiler. At 40,000/150' you'd be at 265 BTU/ft-hr, and an AWT of 130F, with even higher condensation risk.

But that's maybe a good thing. Any small 50-80K condensing boiler with a min-fire input in the 12,000 BTU/hr or lower range a good fit, given the amount of baseboard on your main first-floor zone, and even longer second floor zone. At 12,000 BTU/hr-in at 95% efficiency it would deliver 11,400BTUhr-out , divided by 55' is 207 BTU/hr, which will balance at an AWT of 120F, ( 125F out, 115F-return water), which is about where most condensing boilers actually deliver 95% efficiency. You can probably even dial it in to where the minimum firing rate is 120F -in or a bit lower, but the output of fin-tube baseboard becomes fairly non-linear at temps lower than that, making it hard to adjust "outdoor reset" curves that work in those temperature ranges.

An outdoor reset control lowers the boiler's setpoint temperature in response to higher outdoor temperatures, raises the boiler temp with lower outdoor temperatures. At ~500 BTU/hr per degree hour and a minimum firing rate output of 10,000 BTU/hr it means the outdoor temperature at which it balances at min-fire is 20F below the balance point, or about 40-45F. Above that temp the boiler will cycle on/off no matter what temperature it's set to, but boiler can run nearly continuously whenever it's below that outdoor temp, as long as the outdoor reset temperature is set so that it doesn't satisfy the thermostat quickly. The lower you can set the temperature curve, the higher the combustion efficiency will be and the steadier the indoor temperatures will be. But with fin-tube the hard limit at the warm-outdoors end of the curve should be 115-120F, out.

With 150' of baseboard and a design load of 30K @ +3F that's still 200 BTU/hr per foot of baseboard, so you may not need to even set up much of a curve, since at 200BTU/hr per foot it's still balancing at 120F AWT, well into the condensing zone. At 300 BTU/ft , 45,000 BTU/hr out of the fin-tube it would still only need ~135F -140F water and at the edge of the condensing zone, but it would have to be cooler than -20F outside to really need that. But te actual temp it needs depends on the zone load/length ratios, not the whole-house ratio- this is just a first rough-cut. But even at the final cut it looks like you should be able to average much better than 90% annual efficiency out of it under outdoor-reset control. You can probably do just fine with a condensing water heater set up as a combi-unit, given the load/ft ratios you have.

With a condensing boiler you can close up the flue to block the infiltration, and side-vent the boiler with plastic vent pipe, or in some cases, utilize the flue as a vent pipe chase for both the combustion air & exhaust venting. If other appliances (say, a water heater) shares that flue there are other issues to consider. The existing flue is ridiculously oversized for the BTU output of a water heater, and will have wintertime exhaust condensation & backdrafting problems (look up "orphaned water heater"). With a condensing boiler (any size) an indirect fired water heater operated as a priority zone makes sense. But a condensing water heater with a ~75K BTU burner or large could serve both the space heating and hot water loads and still have faster recovery times than a typical 50 gallon atmospheric drafted water heater.
 

Reicherb

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Wow. That is an amazingly informative post that I'm going to have to digest for a bit. I've got a very old water heater as well. The boiler and water heater do currently share 1 flue. Would you mind suggesting a model boiler with water heater built in and one without based on the information you provided?

Thank you very.

Brad
 

Dana

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The WMB-80C combi boiler is fine for space heating but SUCKs as a tankless water heater at MI type incoming water temperature. That's a problem with most wall-hung tankless combis- the ideal house for wall hung combis is one with very modest hot water requirements and a much larger space heating load. The 10:1 turn down ratio is nice though. At 8000 BTU/hr in, 7600 BTU/hr out it would balance perfectly at condensing temperatures with even a 40' zone, and won't short-cycle wildly at condensing temps.

HTP's UFTC-140 wall hung combi heater has the same min-fire input as the ECO-70 , and 140K at max fire, which would be enough to run a one bathroom house comfortably at MI incoming water temps but not two baths without starting a fight when one person is in the shower when another decides to fill the tub, or with two high-flow showerheads running at the same time. But it suffers the same high min-fire aspect of the ECO-70:

The ECO-70's minimum firing rate is 14,000 BTU/hr (nearly HALF your design heat load, even at MINIMUM fire), whereas ideally you'd want it to be 20-30% lower than that, in the 10,000 BTU/hr range (out) or lower to have a reasonable heating season duty cycle, and to not short-cycle wildly at condensing temps when just your stubby basement zone is calling for heat.

There's a short (but not complete) list of a few boilers that might work on that link I posted earlier.

NTI Trinity TX51 7,100 BTU/h 57,000 BTU/h
Navien NHB 80 8,000 BTU/h 80,000 BTU/h
HTP UFT-80W 8,000 BTU/h 80,000 BTU/h
Lochinvar CDN040 9,000 BTU/h 40,000 BTU/h
IBC HC 13-50 13,000 BTU/h 50,000 BTU/h

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ng-modulating-condensing-boiler#ixzz559AdTWXe

The UFT-8oW is a pretty good fit, and easy to retrofit as a cast-iron replacement since it doesn't have to be plumbed primary/secondary, and has a second port purpose-made for heating an indirect water heater tank. It's pretty cheap too. The same boiler is sold under the Westinghouse name as the WBRUNG 080W, sometimes at a lower price point than the UFT-80W, about $1700 from this vendor. It's not clear how much distributor support there its, but even Home Depot was selling them for awhile.

The Trinity TX51 would be a pretty good fit too.

The CDN040 would take longer for the water heater to recover, which could be an issue when it's in negative double-digits outside.

The NHB-80W is a good fit and may have more local support, but has a water-tube heat exchanger that will probably need primary/secondary plumbing on your system.

It's also possible to make a tank water heater combi out of condensing water heaters such as HTP's Phoenix Light Duty, for less money and more appropriate sizing than their Versa series combis.
 

Reicherb

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One last question. For now! Can you explain the primary/secondary plumbing?

Ok, another question.... My hope is to install this myself. I'm fine with plumbing but am somewhat concerned that a high efficiency boiler will need to be installed and setup in a more particular fashion than a low efficiency model. Is this something I can follow the directions on to get setup correctly?

Thanks,

Brad
 

Dana

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Another good bet is the Lochinvar WH-056, which throttles back to ~8K out at low fire, 52K at high fire.

Primary/secondary plumbing is used when the flow rates required by the boiler differ substantially from the flow rates needed by the zone radiation. With multiple zones the flow to the radiation will differ depending on how many zones are calling for heat. Some boilers have fairly low "pumping head", and can tolerate bigger in-to-out temperature differences making it easier to find a flow rate and pump that works for both using just one pump. With primary/secondary there are two intersecting loops, and two pumps, one for the boiler (the primary loop) and another for the radiation (the secondary). It's important that flow rate changes in the secondary loop don't adversely affect the flows in the primary loop, so the characteristics of where the loops intersect matter. That intersection point is called the "hydraulic seperator". Fatter pipe with VERY closely spaced tees is a cheap and easy way to do it that works for most, but there are also components of even larger diameter purpose designed for that function, or even buffer tanks with a lot of water-mass in them that are useful in different applications.

PME_0907_Feat2Fig10Lg.jpg


In this diagram the orange triangle is the primary pump, the blue the secondary, and the component in the middle is a buffer tank type hydraulic separator. With seven zones the range of flows on the secondary can be pretty large, but the primary pump guarantees the boiler always gets flow that is within spec no matter what the secondary flow rates are.
 

NY_Rob

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Ok, another question.... My hope is to install this myself. I'm fine with plumbing but am somewhat concerned that a high efficiency boiler will need to be installed and setup in a more particular fashion than a low efficiency model. Is this something I can follow the directions on to get setup correctly?

Thanks,

Brad
Before deciding on a particular model boiler... download the install manual from the manufacturers website- they are readily available nowadays.
The install manual will give you good examples of piping, exhaust layout and acceptable venting materials, clearances, etc...
Study the install manual in detail, that will give you a good idea of the scope of the project.
 

Dana

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Researching the local/regional distributors and the number of installers of a particular brand can be important when looking for design & technical support too. A really great boiler where the nearest distributor is the company's US HQ in Los Angeles isn't nearly as useful as a distributor based in Lansing or Detroit.

Distributors are a good resource for finding qualified installers in your area. They know first-hand which installers are turning in bogus warranty claims or calling the tech line to answer questions clearly addressed in the manual, and who has installed dozens in that model line in the past couple of years without complaint or hand-holding.
 
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