Help Selecting a Submersible Pump for 360' Well

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Zane Bridgers, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    I've been binge researching submersible pumps here. A shout out to valveman and the community for the incredible depth of information. What I gather is:

    - No one makes good pumps anymore (a crying shame)
    - Install a CSV to extend the life of the low quality pumps
    - Grundfos is still arguably the best, with SS impellers, even if thin

    We just forked out almost $20k for our well and are pretty flat out, so I'm trying to figure out an economical pump from an at least somewhat reputable company. The static water level is 360', well is 455' and capable of 18gpm and will be shared by two small homes. I think 30/50psi would be adequate for our single story. I can get a:

    - Goulds 10CS15422C 10GPM 1.5HP for $480 new, under warranty - but I've heard folks don't trust the CS line - is it the pump or the CentriPro motor, or both that are a cause for concern?
    - Grundfos 96160144 10GPM 1.5HP for $811
    - A Betta-flow and Hydro-flo pump, but I could not find any residential models/curves online
    - A franklin motor and separate pump end - or is franklin no better than the rest these days...

    I also wonder if I should really be looking in the 2HP range since the flow on these isn't fantastic at this depth/pressure, but it will just be our 1 bed/1 bath for the next couple years until our neighbor builds so trying to avoid too much additional expense.

    As for CSV's, is the PK1A PSIDE-KICK kit a good option?

    Many thanks! I look forward to learning more
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Which is it? Static water level is 360 ft, or well is 360 ft?

    One pump for both houses?
     
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  4. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Sorry - static is 360', well is 455' - I guess it's too late to change the title.
    I was thinking one pump for both houses but maybe it's more economical to install 2 pumps?

    I was planning for an underground well house ~50ft away from the well with the CSV and then it would split for the two houses. The idea was to put the well house near the property line for the convenience of our neighbors.
     
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    When sharing a well, there are legal considerations that you want to address in advance. One user uses a lot more water, and whatnot (starts a farm, for example). Any provision to let a metering method in such a case to allocate expenses better? Who pays for the electricity? Who decides if a higher end repair or upgrade is needed later? Is premium emergency repair warranted, or is a week of downtime acceptable to save money? I don't know all of the stuff that can develop later, but sometimes people fall out. Having a good agreement up front can make things go better.

    I think a 2 HP 10 gpm pump would be about right. That way you can draw water if the water in the well falls.

    Regarding the well house, do you plan to bring the casing above ground? You should. If you are wanting to keep the water below the frost line, use a pitless adapter.

    Both houses are the same altitude? Running 1 inch SIDR poly to each house? 150 ft runs each?
     
  6. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Thanks Reach4! We are planning a well share agreement. Those are all very good things to put in there. We have a separate meter for the well and assumed we'd just split the bill. It's probably wise to put a non-agricultural use clause in there, though knowing our current neighbor at least, it's a long shot.

    The casing is currently about 2ft above ground and I was planning to install a pitless adapter about 4ft below grade (3ft+ frost line). Our neighbor hasn't built yet, but she will be level or slightly lower. Our house is maybe 5ft higher than the well head. ~150ft runs each, diameter is not set in stone. It seems 1 1/4" has a lot less friction. Is that correct?
     
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    Yes.

    Ask the lawyer about a lien if one party is in in arrears, penalty/interest for late pay. Maybe the person asking for the water meters would pay a higher percentage of the meter install, or maybe either member could call for that and costs 50/50 on that. Incidentally, water pump electricity is usually not very much. If your pump draw 3 kw and provides 10 gpm, you would pay for 3 kwh to get 600 gallons. The marginal cost of electricity is probably around $0.10 per kwh. Even if it were double that, you are talking small money. The fixed price for the separate meter will be more significant I suspect.


    I don't know what all can go wrong. People can sell. People can get weird. I am not saying it is likely, but if it is defined in advance, you can make dealing with it less painful. Even siblings can feud. And yet if nothing bad happens, it doesn't cost anything to have the rules made in advance. Get the lawyer who worries about what can go wrong. If things hum along, super.

    1.25 pipe will indeed have lower pressure drop.
    Good deal on the raised casing and the pitless.
     
  8. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Yep, you are very right that people can get weird and situations change. I think it's very smart advice upfront! Well shares are common here because of the depths so there is a precedent that helps.

    The separate meter install is actually because the utility gives a $1000 credit for each meter. Yes it will cost a bit more for the equipment, but it makes it easier to manage and saves us a bit of money upfront.

    Can you or anyone else comment on the equipment? Goulds vs grundfos vs one of the alternatives? Is a franklin motor worth buying separate? I assume it's wise to stay away from the real cheapies, but valveman mentioned elsewhere that the quality difference in brands isn't what it used to be
     
  9. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    A 10GS20 Goulds or a 10S20-27 Grundfos with a CSV1A and a 20 gallon size pressure tank, using a 50/70 pressure switch would be my choice.
     
  10. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Awesome, thank you valveman! I'll definitely go with the CSV1A and 2o gallon tank.

    It appears the Grundfos 10S20-27 comes in both single and 3 phase. Almost all 2HP+ pumps I've seen are 3 phase. Do pumps of this size start to gain substantial efficiency from 3ph configurations? What about 230v vs 460v (other than smaller wire size)?

    As for Goulds, what is the difference between the CS and GS series? I can get a substantially better price on the CS, but cannot seem to find info on the difference. I could put together a 3ph Franklin 2hp motor on a 10CS20 for just over $500 which would really help right now.

    Thanks so much for your help!
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You cannot use 3 phase (230 or 460) unless you have three phase power at the house, which would be unusual. No there is not enough difference in efficiency between a single phase and a three phase motor to matter. You will need a single phase motor with a control box.

    The CS I think has the crimped on end bells that are giving problems. The GS or LS would be better.
     
  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Surely the monthly charge for 3-phase is substantially more than single phase service.

    A 3-phase pump does not need a start capacitor. It just needs a 3-pole contactor controlled by the pressure switch.

    Most generators would not provide 3-phase power. You might want to put a generator at the well if you have an extended power outage.
     
  13. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Sep 30, 2013
    Location:
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    Most residential areas do not have 3 phase power available at all. It is normally only available in Commercial, industrial, and most, but not all rural areas.
     
  14. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2013
    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    So, when do you use a 3 phase sub motor versus a 3 phase motor? 4” single phase motors only go to 5 hp. 6” single phase motors go to 15 horsepower. Over that horsepower, you don’t have any choice, you have to use a 3 phase motor.

    For the same size motor, let’s just use a 3 hp motor as an example, a 3 phase motor can use a smaller size wire than a single phase motor. That’s because the power on a 3 phase motor is being conducted equally on three wires. A single phase, 3 phase motor can have up to 190 ft of #12 wire from the breaker to the motor. That increases to 300 ft with #10 wire. Now if we have a 230 volt, 3 phase, 3 hp motor, #12 wire is good for 390 feet. #10 wire is now good for 620 feet.

    A 3 phase motor is usually a little less expensive than the same size single phase motor.

    A single phase control box is much less expensive than a 3 phase across the line starter.

    Now we can use a phase converter or Variabke speed drive to run a 3 phase motor on single phase incoming power. That is the most common way of creating a variable speed or constant pressure Pump. We are varying the speed of the motor to maintain a set pressure, regardless of the flow rate. However a VFD is an expensive piece of electronic componentry. How many of you are still using a 10 year old computer? Not very many people. Earlier this year I replaced a 5 hp vfd for a customer. His pump house had burned down in a wildfire. I had to tell him his vfd was $2100 compared to a $400 single phase control box. Yes he had saved on the initial installation on the wire size. But he would have had to Have changed both the wire size and the motor to convert to a single phase system.

    The other method of maintaining a set pressure regardless of flow, is mechanically with a Cycle stop valve. It doesn’t know or care the voltage or how many phase the motor has.
     
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  15. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Very interesting! Thanks everyone! I appreciate that in depth explanation boycedrilling! I confirmed there is no 3 phase power in my area. Also definitely got the memo that CSV's are superior to VFD's from valveman. Couldn't afford a VFD anyway.

    Most of the pumps in this class have a 1-1/4" discharge. Sounds like there is some consensus on a SS barb fitting (w/ teflon for SS pump heads) with opposed SS hose clamps and water heated PE before fitting. Do most folks use 1-1/4 NSF poly (PE) tubing? I'd prefer to avoid the extra friction of 1", but 1-1/2" seems like a fine option. Where do you guys buy this stuff? Seems most plumbing supply stores around here don't stock it, and the ones that can order it only have 300ft rolls.

    I was planning to use double jacketed 10/3 THHN/THWN for the 2hp pump, soldered and shrink wrapped. Seems this will just handle 6.3A @450'. Scotch 33+ to tape it. How often do you guys tape it? I've seen about every 10' for the first 100', then every 50-100' from there. Does anyone here run a second poly line for the wires as extra protection, or is double jacketed plenty with a CSV system?

    I understand no torque arrestors, standoffs maybe, no additional check valves (because of negative pressure/water hammer - thanks for the excellent explanation valveman). Is it safe to assume these goulds and grundfos pumps have a good check valve installed?

    So much excellent information here - thank you all for that!
     
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Most folks use threaded schedule 80 or schedule 120 PVC. They are using a truck with a hoist to handle the 20 ft pipes.

    Your drop pipe should be rated to handle the pressure near the pump. 250 psi rating may not be enough. 300 psi rating would be much harder to find.


    1-1/4 poly would be more than enough. 1 inch would do the job, but 1-1/4 is readily available.


    poly pipe used for wells ASTM D2239 where IPS ID is held and OD varies with
    PSI ratings. http://www.charterplastics.com/pipe/
    D2239 is a size standard AFAIK.

    https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/rough-plumbing/pipe-tubing-hoses-fittings-accessories/pipe/polypipe/c-8570.htm?Spec_NominalSize_facet=1-1/2+inch&Spec_NominalSize_facet=1-1/4+inch&ipp=28
    No Menards in NM, however.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  17. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Thanks Reach4 - very helpful! Nice to know the ASTM size. I still am not seeing 500' rolls in 1-1/4 unfortunately.

    I re-measured the static level the other day, it's about 345', shouldn't be much draw down since we're looking at 10GPM pumps in a 18GPM well. Say we do 40/60 PSI, that adds 139'@60PSI, another ~10' for friction loss = 494'

    494x.433 (PSI/ft) = 214 PSI - not sure if I'm missing anything in that calculation, but it seems 250 PSI would do. I sure hope so because dealing with PVC sounds like a PITA.

    Can anyone comment on how often you tape the wire to the poly?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    214 PSI would be right without a CSV. With a CSV the pipe will see 320 PSI. But the burst pressure for poly is 2 to 5 times the rated pressure. I wouldn't be worried about the pressure as much as the length and weight on the poly pipe. Tape the pipe every 10' or so to keep it from sagging, and no you don't need a piece of poly over double jacketed wire.
     
  19. Zane Bridgers

    Zane Bridgers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2018
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
    Thanks valveman and Reach4!

    I talked to a well supply/installer today and he said I was crazy to hang the pump on that much poly because it would be a nightmare to pull. He said he uses exclusively Sched 80 PVC and has a rig to pull it. He said the poly is a pain to hook up and often gets destroyed in the process. He did admit installing the poly would be easier however. He also mentioned the 1-1/4 poly will weigh .65 lbs per foot full of water which was interesting.

    What would you all recommend? Is poly not the way to go for a well of this depth and flow? PVC seems more challenging to install, remove and leaves more room for error with all the joints for an amateur, but the best I can do is speculate, whereas many of you have decades of field experience.

    Many thanks everyone!
     
  20. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I would use the PVC pipe that the well guy likes, if he is doing the work.

    If you will be doing the well work, then the poly with a big homemade pulley made from a truck or tractor wheel.

    I have my well work done for me. They use schedule 80 PVC.
     
  21. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I know homeowners who have pulled and set pumps that deep on poly. Less than 200' poly is easy and safe. Over 200' is a different story. I feel for you wanting to do this yourself, but this is one case where you might be better off letting the well guy at least set the pump with his rig.
     
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