Help picking a softener system

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mf915

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I know there are a lot of threads out there :)
Livingston NJ - water is 14 grains per gallon
Only two people in the house (4 bd, 3 1/2 bath).

One of the most common systems i see out there is Fleck 5600SXT. With just two people, it seems that 24k grain system should be more than enough. What is the disadvantage of getting a 32k grain or 48k grain ?

Any suggestion on other brands ?
Thanks !
 

Reach4

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1 cubic ft (called "32k grain) would be adequate, but 1.5 cubic ft ("48k") would be better. The bigger tank goes longer between regenerations. On each regen, you leave on average about 1/2 day of capacity unused. Longer between regens means that 1/2 day is less as a percent.

The 10x54 is a nice size. Note that you don't actually set up to use 32k or 48k. You adjust to a more salt-efficient setting of 20k to 24k per cubic ft of resin.

Also 1.5 cubic ft is better at handling high flow rates, as you might get when company is taking showers at the same time.

You need 10% crosslinked resin for city water.

The Fleck 5600SXT is 3/4 internally. The 5810SXT is 1 inch internally, as your pipes may be.
 
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mf915

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Thanks for reply. Yes the main pipe is 1". It's strange when i google around, i hardly see places selling 5810. Most places online sell 5600. I guess if i end up getting 5600, it's just matter of getting some 1" to 3/4" adapter right ?

For Fleck system (or perhaps all others), regeneration is done automatically *only* when it's needed ? So it's not like i have to set it to do it every week at 2 am in the morning of a Sunday or something like that ... right ?
 
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Reach4

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Thanks for reply. Yes the main pipe is 1". It's strange when i google around, i hardly see places selling 5810.
The 5810 is not allowed to be advertised for web or phone sales. It is behind the counter.
 

Reach4

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Where can i buy 5810 then ?
index.php
 

zer0

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1 cubic ft (called "32k grain) would be adequate, but 1.5 cubic ft ("48k") would be better. The bigger tank goes longer between regenerations. On each regen, you leave on average about 1/2 day of capacity unused. Longer between regens means that 1/2 day is less as a percent.

The 10x54 is a nice size. Note that you don't actually set up to use 32k or 48k. You adjust to a more salt-efficient setting of 20k to 24k per cubic ft of resin.

Also 1.5 cubic ft is better at handling high flow rates, as you might get when company is taking showers at the same time.

You need 10% crosslinked resin for city water.

The Fleck 5600SXT is 3/4 internally. The 5810SXT is 1 inch internally, as your pipes may be.

Wow 2 people and you think they need a 10" tank? 10" tanks are for families that intend to run around 100 gallons per day...10x54 is almost bordering on softeners for small buildings.

There are also lots of issues that come with 10" as opposed to 9 or 8". 10" tanks are getting into the hub-n-lateral type distributors, needed if going upflow. Point manifolds start losing a lot of efficiency on 10" tanks sizes. 10" tanks also need upsized eductor to generate the optimal tank velocities needed for regen. So, if they have low pressure in the house/municipal water lines, it will be more trouble down the road.

9" (9x48, 9x42, 9x36) can fit anywhere from 1 to 2.5 cf of resin, which is already a lot of capacity. Based on lab testing, total grains should be around 30k to 60k which is substantial for 2 people. You would essentially need to consume more than 2000 gallons a week to substantiate going to a larger tank size.

For two people, even mini 9x16 work, they just regen more often.

Also, the idea that you should try to wait longer between regens...where did this come from? Ive seen it on this site now too many times. The following is from actual laboratory test data of regen time periods:

1 week is optimal
2 weeks is around max
3 weeks you start seeing microbiological buildup in the resin
4 weeks you start seeing microbes in the water

The regen is not simply there for recharging the resin. It is there to fluff the bed, kill microbes, and flush the debris.
 

Reach4

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9" (9x48, 9x42, 9x36) can fit anywhere from 1 to 2.5 cf of resin
That statement stands out.

Got some TARDIS tanks there? Or are you talking about using 2 tanks with very little freeboard?
 
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Reach4

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For two people, even mini 9x16 work, they just regen more often.
SFR would be what?

Not waiting until the middle of the night to regen implies a 2-tank system.

Also, the idea that you should try to wait longer between regens...where did this come from? Ive seen it on this site now too many times. The following is from actual laboratory test data of regen time periods:

1 week is optimal
2 weeks is around max
3 weeks you start seeing microbiological buildup in the resin
4 weeks you start seeing microbes in the water

The regen is not simply there for recharging the resin. It is there to fluff the bed, kill microbes, and flush the debris.
Got one of those studies available?

No mention of chlorinated water? Sanitized plumbing?
 

ditttohead

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10" tanks are not a problem in residential applications and they do not require a hub and lateral. We do microbial testing in our facility regularly especially when we get old units in. We rarely see anything that would be of even the slightest concern especially of the systems are being minimally maintained. While regenerating every couple of weeks has no negative, regenerating more frequently than weekly starts to get a little to far off the efficiency charts without dealing with variable brining or other designs that simply are not worth the headaches.
How can you fit 2.5 cu. ft into a 9x48 vessel, my calculations when taking into consideration the domes, I can only get 1.58 cubic feet of resin. Properly design using industry standard freeboards, backwash rates and bed depths I am only seeing a capacity of .96 cu. (1 cu. ft is close enough).

10x54 is the most common tank size for residential applications. With a real capacity of 30,000 grains when using 6 pounds of salt per cubic foot, the math is fairly simple. 30,000/14=compensation and seasonal variability, lets assume 18 GPG. This would mean the system is rated for about 1666 gallons between regeneration. Estimated daily use for two people is about 150 gallons so this would put your regenerations out to about 11 days between. This will give you exceptional efficiency and good quality water. It will also allow for some growth in the family.

A 10x54 unit is 50% larger than the 9x48 system but typically only adds about 10% more cost. it also increases efficiency significantly.

And if any of the contributors to this board want me to do a quick Coliform/ecoli test of their softened water, please let me know. I can arrange for you to send me a sample and we will do it for no charge. It only takes about 48 hours for me to complete. I did my system about 6 months ago, 14x47 catalytic carbon and 14x47 softener so no chlorine or chloramine is getting to my softener, and my unit is sized to regenerate about every 25-30 days. I removed the KDF in my most recent design so as to be able to more closely monitor bacterial issues, KDF can mitigate this slightly so I did not want this affecting the test results, so far it is still coming back negative. I am not using my $10,000 Anatel a1000 obviously, just a simple culture testing system with an incubator.
 

old_college_try

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I'm also interested in finding a dealer that sells a quality product, either online, or locally in Florida, south of the Tampa Bay area. I found a source for the 5810xrt2 softener / carbon filter setup (not advertised, but they can provide it), and they seem to have a large online presence, but just not sure if the products are high quality. I'm on municipal water, only about 12gpg hardness, and the water is treated with chloramine. I believe I should be looking or a unit with 10% cross-linked resin, and activated carbon for the filter. Is there a brand for these that I should be looking for? I also noticed a high-efficiency option w/ SST-60 resin, with a significantly higher cost. Is this resin better, or for more of a specific purpose? Any advice is appreciated.
 

Bannerman

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Chloramine is tougher to remove than Chlorine alone so Catalytic Carbon will be more effective than activated carbon. The carbon should be contained in a separate tank and backwashed at the appropriate rate for that tank diameter and media.

The use of 10% crosslink resin is recommended for continuous Chlorine exposure. With a carbon filter system preceding the softener, the softener will not be exposed to chlorine thereby eliminating the main reason to use 10% over less expensive standard 8% resin.

It is generally not worth the additional expensive for SST-60 resin as any efficiency gains are typically marginal in a residential sized softener.. Most residential softeners containing SST-60 are usually configured virtually the same as though they contain standard resin.
 
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mf915

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Couple other questions:
1) my washer standpipe is over 60 ft from where the water softener will be. The other option is to run a pvc drain pipe through the concrete block which is still about 15 ft away. Is 60 ft way too far ? Would that be another good reason for me to choose 5810 over 5600 because backwash flow rate is a lot higher, for a long drain line ?

2) I have 1" PEX from main supply. if i put the PEX-Male MIP adapter on the PEX inlet/outlet, is it acceptable to connect the softener using flexible stainless steel hoses ? or i really need to use 1" PEX ? the reason i want flexible hoses is that the PEX hoses might not be line up exactly where the fleck valve is.
 

Reach4

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1. The backwash rate will be the same for each controller. For a 60 ft run, you would run larger pipe. I think 3/4 PVC or 1 inch pex would be big enough.

2. You can use quality full-diameter stainless steel hoses. The Falcon ones have that characteristic.

If you want some flex with PEX, you need to have significant jogs. So maybe down a couple feet, across 4 ft or so, and down another couple of feet. Alternatively, you could make a rotated U-shaped path. I think the clamp or crimp would be better than the expansion type for that, because you can get things positioned before tightening.

Use a level to get the tank vertical.
 

mf915

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What is the reason behind using a drain line with larger diameter for a longer run ? Is it because a smaller pipe has more friction and it requires a higher flow rate to push the water through ?

Also, what type of poly tubing do i need ? do i need pex ? any minimum psi requirement for the drain tubing ?
 
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Reach4

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What is the reason behind using a drain line with larger diameter for a longer run ? Is it because a smaller pipe has more friction and it requires a higher flow rate to push the water through ?
The bigger pipe will have less pressure loss for a given flow rate.

The Fleck 5812 service manual says this:
The pipe size for a residential drain line
should be a minimum of 1/2" (13 mm). Backwash flow rates
in excess of 7 gpm (26.5 Lpm) or drain line length in excess
of 20' (6 m) require 3/4" (19 mm) drain line. Commercial
drain lines should be the same size as the drain line flow
control.​

Now that is a bit simplified. A 10 inch diameter softener backwashes at 2.4 gpm. So I just made a crude guess that may be too cautious. If it were a burden to run pipe bigger than needed, a pipe pressure loss calculator could be useful. 3/4 PVC is bigger than 3/4 pex. Use the type of pipe you are more comfortable with. PVC is good if you don't have another preference. I use a vinyl flex line for my drain, but it is much shorter.
 
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