Help isolate SQE/CU301 problem

[Reach4]

With taps, heat pump on, max flow I could get was about 11gpm and pressure stabilized at about 60psi.

How can you measure that flow-- with a flow meter measuring the rate of flow in the pipe from the pump? Could that meter be a little off? Could there be any flow bypassing the meter?

It seems to me that if you are pressure-stablilized at 60 PSI, then it would be the loads that determine the flow at 60 PSI. It would only be when the pressure was below the requested pressure that you would be getting a flow limited by the ability of the pump.

 

[Valveman]

How can you measure that flow-- with a flow meter measuring the rate of flow in the pipe from the pump? Could that meter be a little off? Could there be any flow bypassing the meter?

It seems to me that if you are pressure-stablilized at 60 PSI, then it would be the loads that determine the flow at 60 PSI. It would only be when the pressure was below the requested pressure that you would be getting a flow limited by the ability of the pump.

Without the CU301 there is nothing to stabilize the pressure. The pump is running flat out and you are getting as much flow as the pump will produce from that depth plus 60 PSI.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[treetops]

How can you measure that flow-- with a flow meter measuring the rate of flow in the pipe from the pump? Could that meter be a little off? Could there be any flow bypassing the meter?

It seems to me that if you are pressure-stablilized at 60 PSI, then it would be the loads that determine the flow at 60 PSI. It would only be when the pressure was below the requested pressure that you would be getting a flow limited by the ability of the pump.

Flow is measured at a see-thru flow meter on my heat pump. Globe valves on the heat pump supply used to adjust the flow are wide open. With these openm I used to get up to 20gpm at 60psi. Now only 11gpm at 60psi. There are no other restrictions in this supply. It is direct from pump. There is no other leakage unless its in the well pipe. As soon as I open a tap, pressure starts to decrease as would be expected if pump is at max capability.

 

[treetops]

Without the CU301 there is nothing to stabilize the pressure. The pump is running flat out and you are getting as much flow as the pump will produce from that depth plus 60 PSI.

Yes, I agree with that.
Can't imagine static level has dropped from 40' to 160' as charts, as Reach4 noted, would indicate for this flow and pressure. Or that draw down is that low either. Pump can run all day at 11gpm without going dry. Lake level 50ft away is at 40': pump at 180'.
Pretty sure pump is defective. Will have pump guy in after holiday season. In meantime, heat pump keeps us warm at 10 gpm and temp outside this AM at 3F.

Happy New Year! And thanks for the help.

 

[Valveman]

In meantime, heat pump keeps us warm at 10 gpm and temp outside this AM at 3F.

If that is the case the problem maybe just a faulty flow meter. Do a bucket test. I don't trust flow meters and the smaller they are the less reliable.

 

[treetops]

Would be great if its a flowmeter problem but...
this is an industrial grade meter with a steel bobber moving up and down a thin rod inside a 12' glass tube calibrated 0 to 20gpm. Very simple so it should be very accurate.
Anyway I did do a bucket test. Same results: at 10gpm pressure is steady at 58psi. At 11 - 12gpm it drops to 46psi. At 13-14 gpm drops to 40. Of course it was probably not really giving these flows as the pressure dropped. But the fact remains, this pump will not provide anything more than 10 - 11 gpm at 60psi and at max speed.

What do you think about my assumption that because the lake is only 50 ft away and the lake level is only about 40 - 50 ft below the top of the well, the static level in the well should be around the 50 ft mark after overnite recovery...despite the rocky ground?? If so, and if the pump is working OK, when the pump is first turned on, I would expect the max flow should start out close to the 20gpm this pump is spec'ed for at 60psi. But that does not happen: still only get 10gpm.

 

[Craigpump]

Maybe I missed it, but where's the water level when the pump is delivering 10gpm?

 

[Reach4]

Maybe I missed it, but where's the water level when the pump is delivering 10gpm?

In post #10 he states that the static level was 45 ft, and the pressure does not start higher and drop, as would be expected if there was a lot of draw-down.

 

[Craigpump]

Humor me, I wanted to know the true drawdown level.

A common misconception is that a body of water always influences water levels in nearby wells, sometimes it does, sometimes not. I can take you to wells here in my home town that are 30' from a huge lake that are 700' deep with low yields and static levels.

 

[treetops]

Maybe I missed it, but where's the water level when the pump is delivering 10gpm?

Don't know that yet. Next thing is to get my pump guy in. Suspect that the first thing he should do is measure the levels...static and draw-down. Wish I had the tools to do this and quickly determine if well is the issue.

 

[treetops]

Humor me, I wanted to know the true drawdown level.

A common misconception is that a body of water always influences water levels in nearby wells, sometimes it does, sometimes not. I can take you to wells here in my home town that are 30' from a huge lake that are 700' deep with low yields and static levels.

Yes I agree this does happen.
I may be making to much of this but my well's static level was measured several years ago as being at 45ft which is about lake level. Right now holding onto the hope this hasn't changed too much!
I don't have data on levels measured when well was drilled except that it was tested by drillers as having a 40gpm continuous flow capability.
Will have to wait for pump guy after holidays.

 

[Craigpump]

It's pretty rare (at least where I am) for a 40gpm well with a 45' static to lose its yield.

The tough part for anyone in the business is not being there with our equipment to properly diagnose your problem. Speculation based on what's been read in books or online doesn't always translate well to what's really happening in the field.

The very first thing to do is pull the cap and determine the water level then pull the pump up and do open discharge onto the ground. Followed by monitoring the drawdown, if there is any. A competent pump guy will have this figured out in no time.

 

[treetops]

It's pretty rare (at least where I am) for a 40gpm well with a 45' static to lose its yield.

The tough part for anyone in the business is not being there with our equipment to properly diagnose your problem. Speculation based on what's been read in books or online doesn't always translate well to what's really happening in the field.

The very first thing to do is pull the cap and determine the water level then pull the pump up and do open discharge onto the ground. Followed by monitoring the drawdown, if there is any. A competent pump guy will have this figured out in no time.

Not sure what you mean by "determine the water level then pull the pump up and do open discharge onto the ground. Followed by monitoring the drawdown"
Do you mean do open discharge, then measure draw down then puul pump?

What is an open discharge?

 

[Reach4]

What is an open discharge?

That would be the water pumping right to air without pressurizing a plumbing system and without restriction.

You did not ask how to monitor the drawdown. Some well people have a sonic gadget that can measure the water level. That is not the only way.

 

[LLigetfa]

Not sure what you mean by "determine the water level then pull the pump up and do open discharge onto the ground.

Lift the pump up off the pitless so that it is open ended and above the top of the casing.

 

[Valveman]

Been thinking about this and re-reading. The fact that the pump is drawing maximum amperage means it must be moving maximum flow. The amperage should drop some when the pump is only producing 10 GPM, no matter if the reduced flow is caused by a lower pumping level, bad pump, restriction, etc.

This leads me back to a hole in the drop pipe. The only thing that makes sense is that another 10 GPM is being re-circulated in the well. This would only be possible if you have an above ground check valve, or you would have other symptoms as well.

If you do have an above ground check valve, removing or disabling it would be a way to see if this diagnosis is correct. Without a check valve, if water from the pressure tank quickly drains back as soon as the pump shuts off, there is a hole in the drop pipe.

 

[Craigpump]

Sonic "gadgets" aren't the only way to monitor water levels, but since they send a sonar type of signal down the well, they reduce the possibility of contamination.

Btw, those sonic gadgets start at about $1000.00 and they are far more reliable than a stone or ice cube

 

[treetops]

OK I now understand "open discharge". What is being measured during this open discharge? Just the drawdown? Or somehow also the flow rate?

 

[Craigpump]

Both

 

[treetops]

Been thinking about this and re-reading. The fact that the pump is drawing maximum amperage means it must be moving maximum flow. The amperage should drop some when the pump is only producing 10 GPM, no matter if the reduced flow is caused by a lower pumping level, bad pump, restriction, etc.

This leads me back to a hole in the drop pipe. The only thing that makes sense is that another 10 GPM is being re-circulated in the well. This would only be possible if you have an above ground check valve, or you would have other symptoms as well.

If you do have an above ground check valve, removing or disabling it would be a way to see if this diagnosis is correct. Without a check valve, if water from the pressure tank quickly drains back as soon as the pump shuts off, there is a hole in the drop pipe.

Checked to see if I have a check valve in the basement and attached below pics of what I found . I suppose this could be a check valve although there is no arrow anywhere on the body to indicate flow direction. I would expect all check valves to have an arrow.No markings except country "Thailand" ( I think), a makers mark, and size. Cap is 11/4" with a 1/2" plug in it. This at the end of the plastic pipe coming in from the well and before the pressure sensor, tank and gauge. Maybe its just an access point.

Suppose I could drain water in tank, open the cap and see what's inside. What do you think?

As far as I know the plastic pipe goes directly from here to the pitless connection about 8ft below ground and 35 ft from house.
When pump shuts off pressure stays at 60psi.