Help! How Many "Safe/Approved" circuits in this 20 Space Panel?

[Elton Noway]

The Main Lug subpanel in the photo is a Square D panel mounted inside our house in the utility room. It is labeled as Catalog# QOBW 20125-5. It is original to the house built in 1983. I found a box full of "used" single circuit breakers on a shelf in the utility room. On investigation of the panel I could see two different styles if tandem breakers along a few remaining singles. If I had to guess, it appears singles have been swapped out for tandems over the last 30 + years as more circuits were needed. The box currently has 20 spaces (all used" for a total of 31 circuits.)

In perusing the web I see 125A main lug panels identified by their number of spaces and circuits. Example: I've found seen 125A panels with 20 slots / 20 circuits and 125A with 20 slots /40 circuits. Obviously the 40 circuit box will accept 20 tandems for 40 circuits whereas the 20 circuit box will only accept singles. Although someone was able to add more circuits to this box over the years I'm hoping to find someone familiar with this box who can identify or determine if the box is actually safe to hold 40 circuits. Granted the previous owner was able to add tandem circuits as needed but who knows if anyone verified it was designed as such. My problem is the box is so old I can't find any information on the panel to see if its designed capacity is being exceeded or if everything is just the way it is. FYI: The exterior "House Main Circuit box" has a 90Amp disconnect that feeds to this main lug panel.

 

[Stuff]

You need to look more closely at the labels on the inside of the panel as it should be there somewhere. If not you pull some breakers and look to see if the tandems have a hook on them.

I see multiple white neutral wires in single holes. That is a problem and major indication that this was not designed for more than 20 circuits.

"cheater" style tandem breakers for pre 1967 panels that are more than twice as expensive:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-2-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QO2020C/100075651
new style that has hook to only fit panels designed for tandems:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...le-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QOT2020CP/100021761

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Elton Noway]

You need to look more closely at the labels on the inside of the panel as it should be there somewhere. If not you pull some breakers and look to see if the tandems have a hook on them.

I see multiple white neutral wires in single holes. That is a problem and major indication that this was not designed for more than 20 circuits.

"cheater" style tandem breakers for pre 1967 panels that are more than twice as expensive:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-2-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QO2020C/100075651
new style that has hook to only fit panels designed for tandems:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...le-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QOT2020CP/100021761

Thanks for the quick response. Believe it or not I've even pulled the breakers on both sides to get a better look searching for more labels. No luck. As to the breakers... "none of them have hooks... "all" the breakers, including all the Tandems look like this, the same as "cheater" style in your link.

I did find the inspection sticker, it's dated Jan 1983. If this cheater style breaker is pre 1967 maybe the builders electrician was cutting corners using up old stock inventory.

Good catch on the neutral bar, I just went in and counted the available holes and there are only 20. I had noticed some neutrals were doubled up but didn't consider it to be an issue because I thought code allowed two neutrals per hole. Correct?

So... since the breakers are all the cheater style... and because it only has 20 neutral holes... and I can't find any other identifying labels... would it be a good idea for me to look at swapping out the panel? Since the Main Circuit panel is Square D and because the current Main Lug panel has 31 circuits I was looking at using one of these unless you can suggest a better match or alternative. Suggestions?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...oad-Center-with-Cover-HOM2040L125PC/204836356
or this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...Cover-and-Ground-Bar-HOM2448L125PGC/204836361
I have no loyalty to Home Depot if I'd be better off going to an electrical supply store.

 

[Aaroninnh]

Code doesn't dictate how many neutrals per hole. In that area, code simply states that the equipment needs to be installed per manufacturers directions. Often then is a sticker somewhere on the panel that provides torque values for the neutral screws and it usually mentions how many wires per hole are are allowed. For example, it may say 1-2 14AWG-10AWG 35 in-lbs, 1 8-4AWG 45 in-lbs. That would tell you you can have up to 2 conductors in a hole as long as they are 10AWG or smaller and must be torqued to 35 inch lbs. 8AWG through 4AWG is a single conductor. No wire bigger than 4AWG is allowed in that hole and you would need a lug. This is just an example for you to look for.

There used to be a 42 circuit limit in any panel and these tandem breakers with the key, or slot, to ensure they could only be put in the right panel was all to ensure the 42 circuit limit wasn't exceeded. So you might have a 30 space panel but they would have the holes cut out in certain panel spaces to allow tandems...ensuring that any combination would never exceed the 42 circuit limit. If I recall it went back to an old FDNY fire code regarding how having to flip too many breaker handles to cut off power (assuming you are in a sub panel w/o a main) would take too much time during a fire or other emergency. It was really an arbitrary stupid rule and was eliminated in the NEC a couple of code cycles ago. Now there is no circuit limit per panel...only up to what the manufacturer decides to build and get listed via UL.

Honestly, most of the circuit limits in smaller panels was marketing and used to force people to purchase panels of the next size up. You will see a 20 circuit panel and a 20/40 circuit panel that are exactly the same...only difference is they have the slots cut out in the plastic to allow the tandems to fit in and the 20/40 would cost an extra $20.

Conductor fill in the box is an item to look at as there are specific rules there, but as busy as that panel looks it is nowhere near conductor fill capacity.

If it was me, I would replace the panel. I never like a full panel...I always want some room to work and extra space for expansion. Also now that code requires Arc Faults for most circuits, this effectively eliminates tandems. This install would be grandfathered so you don't have to worry, but any new circuit adds will need to take up a full panel space as AFCI breakers aren't available in tandems (and probably will never be because they generate a lot of heat and it would be unsafe).

As to your panel suggestions, you are looking at SquareD homeline. I am not a fan. First of all, the panel you have now is a SquareD QO series and the breakers are not interchangable. If you bought another QO based panel you could reuse many of the breakers. Also, QO is usually a copper bus while Homeline is aluminum. QO is frankly just a better product.

Good luck with your project.

 

[hj]

Normally, if the panel is not designed for a "tandem breaker" they will NOT fit into the slot. Your drawing on the cover will have a number for each space. If the "box" has a dotted line through it or A/B then it is a double slot. How about a "good" photo of the paper on the inside of the door?

 

[Stuff]

When you pulled the breaker does it look like a tandem with the hook would fit?

Current NEC does dictate how many neutrals per hole. Looks like rule was added in 2002 so may have been legal when installed but not when modified later.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded
conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual
terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

 

[Elton Noway]

Code doesn't dictate how many neutrals per hole. In that area, code simply states that the equipment needs to be installed per manufacturers directions. Often then is a sticker somewhere on the panel that provides torque values for the neutral screws and it usually mentions how many wires per hole are are allowed. For example, it may say 1-2 14AWG-10AWG 35 in-lbs, 1 8-4AWG 45 in-lbs. That would tell you you can have up to 2 conductors in a hole as long as they are 10AWG or smaller and must be torqued to 35 inch lbs. 8AWG through 4AWG is a single conductor. No wire bigger than 4AWG is allowed in that hole and you would need a lug. This is just an example for you to look for.

Maybe because this panel is so old that that level of detail wasn't provided back then, i.e., no torque values etc. Here is a copy of the only label that provides anything close to what you are describing:

There used to be a 42 circuit limit in any panel and these tandem breakers with the key, or slot, to ensure they could only be put in the right panel was all to ensure the 42 circuit limit wasn't exceeded. So you might have a 30 space panel but they would have the holes cut out in certain panel spaces to allow tandems...ensuring that any combination would never exceed the 42 circuit limit.

All the holes cutouts are the same. There is nothing (no safeguard) to prevent me from putting a tandem in all 20 slots.

If you bought another QO based panel you could reuse many of the breakers. Also, QO is usually a copper bus while Homeline is aluminum. QO is frankly just a better product.

I'd love to use a QO panel but At this time I've been unable to find any model of a QO Square D Main Lug panel that is 125 Amps having 30 or 40 circuits. If you know of a model number I'm open to suggestions.

Normally, if the panel is not designed for a "tandem breaker" they will NOT fit into the slot. Your drawing on the cover will have a number for each space. If the "box" has a dotted line through it or A/B then it is a double slot. How about a "good" photo of the paper on the inside of the door?

Unfortunately, as mentioned, right ot wrong I can put a tandem in every slot. The paper on the cover is pretty thread bare. (too many erasures over the years...) but there seems to be an indication of what you are eluding to. (dotted line)

When you pulled the breaker does it look like a tandem with the hook would fit?

Current NEC does dictate how many neutrals per hole. Looks like rule was added in 2002 so may have been legal when installed but not when modified later.

Nope... the mounting bar is a "solid" raised protrusion, no way would a "hook" style type breaker fit (I tried)

FYI: This whole dilemma started I decided to install a small mini split AC system to our sunroom. Per the manufacturer it requires a 220V.. 12 Gauge, 20 Amp circuit. Both the main and sub panels were full so I was thinking I "could" pull four of the single breakers in the sub panel and add two more tandems. This would free up the double space needed to add the 20A breaker (whew ... talk about maxing out a panel! )

 

[Stuff]

If the hook style won't fit and this panel is from the 80s then tandems are not allowed. What about the label on the other side? It should also say CTL somewhere on the label indicating that it is post 1967 as well as what type of breakers are allowed..

 

[Elton Noway]

If the hook style won't fit and this panel is from the 80s then tandems are not allowed. What about the label on the other side? It should also say CTL somewhere on the label indicating that it is post 1967 as well as what type of breakers are allowed..

The cover label for breakers 17 thru 20 have dotted lines which would seem to indicate those four locations are okay for tandems. Nothing to base that on.. just guessing. Here's the only other label in the box... as you indicated... its on the other side. It's a long vertical label so I split it into three sections:

 

[Aaroninnh]

Stuff is right. One neutral per hole. My info was related to the EGC (grounding conductor) and not the neutral. My mistake!

I believe the reference to r-handles is for tandem breakers so that makes it look like the last 4 spaces can legally take tandems but that is on the cover. Hard to trust the cover as it may have been replaced over the years. The part number of the interior is what matters. Assuming the best case, and the cover is right, that looks like a 20 space panel with 4 spots for tandems which would make it a 20-24 panel. The other clue is the cover label has a dotted line between the upper and lower half of the label for spaces 17-20. You can barely make it out, but I can see it in the photos. The other spaces are missing it. A 20 space 24 circuit panel is not uncommon, so it is probably one of those. A panel that takes only 4 tandems was pretty common.

Regardless, that panel probably should be replaced. Best case it is out of poles, worst case it is already a violation.

 

[hj]

The "R " is to designate WHICH of the tandem breakers the entry refers to, however, yours are side by side tandems, rather than left and right ones.

 

[Stuff]

I see on the label to use only CTL breakers. Current QO CTL tandems have the hook. Non-CTLs are what you have installed.

You mentioned the red dotted line. Some panels allow tandems in certain spaces. See if the bottom spaces will fit a hooked tandem.

Old style tandems had different arrangement. Old style CTL with hook:

 

[Cacher_Chick]

You can get a 125A QO panel with 32 spaces, but if you are going through the trouble, you could up your service or install a sub.
Today's homes are getting more energy efficient, but a load calc is always a good idea.

 

[Jadnashua]

If you change the main breaker, you can use a larger panel and limit it to what you want by a new breaker. IOW, a 200A panel, could have the main breaker changed to 100A if you wanted/needed, but would allow your supply to be upgraded at a different time, should you find it necessary. Or, install a subpanel with more space. When I was doing a kitchen remodel, the contractor did just that to make room...installed a much larger subpanel than my main to account for the new circuits required to meet current codes for the new kitchen.

 

[Elton Noway]

[snipA 20 space 24 circuit panel is not uncommon, so it is probably one of those. A panel that takes only 4 tandems was pretty common.

Regardless, that panel probably should be replaced. Best case it is out of poles, worst case it is already a violation.

It's the potential for a code violation that has me looking into this issue. It beginning to look like I should swap it out now so it doesn't become an issue if/when I ever get around to selling this house.

I see on the label to use only CTL breakers. Current QO CTL tandems have the hook. Non-CTLs are what you have installed.

You mentioned the red dotted line. Some panels allow tandems in certain spaces. See if the bottom spaces will fit a hooked tandem.

Old style tandems had different arrangement. Old style CTL with hook:

I pulled the breakers from the bottom spaces... no hooks on any of them. One of them was the old style end to end tandem rather than side by side. Here's a photo:

You can get a 125A QO panel with 32 spaces, but if you are going through the trouble, you could up your service or install a sub.

To be honest... increasing the service and or installing a sub is more than I want to bite off. I figure I can swap out the main lug in about 4 to 5 hours and be done with it. The house is only 2100sq ft and other than adding a split AC unit on the sunroom I'm done adding any power hungry features. For got to mention but the breakers for the HVAC, Water Heater, Well Pump and Oven are all on the outside main panel. Another reason I was thinking I could stay with 125 A.

If you change the main breaker, you can use a larger panel and limit it to what you want by a new breaker. IOW, a 200A panel, could have the main breaker changed to 100A if you wanted/needed, but would allow your supply to be upgraded at a different time, should you find it necessary. Or, install a subpanel with more space.

The 200A panels are huge and it would end up having a lot of empty spaces. Granted they could be used for future growth but worried that when selling an inspector seeing the 200A panel might suggest to the prospective buyer that I upgrade the service. I need a panel that is 14" wide and the Square D Homeline series has the most in this offering. Ideally I was hoping to find a panel that is only slightly larger/taller than the current one. (e.g. 24 space / 48 circuit or 30 space / 60 circuit) Other than Square D this Siemens panel seems equivalent to the QO series. I haven't looked into Murry, Eaton or GE yet.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...WireGuide-Load-Center-P3060L1125ACU/207158486

 

[Aaroninnh]

I am a big fan of the Siemens PL series panels. Copper busses, lots of room to work in the tub, very nice.

Murray owned by Siemens now and is basically the lower line of the Siemens PL panel you linked to. Aluminum bus.

 

[Elton Noway]

Okay... thanks to everyone's help I think I've pretty netted the conclusion:
Right or wrong... My sub panel was an "old enough" design which allowed the current mishmash of too many breakers, of various styles, both single and tandem. As a result the panel contains more circuits than it was designed for or rated to handle ... too many single-pole/one circuit breakers have been replaced with tandem breakers and would currently be considered in violation (grandfathered or not). So... I need to replace the panel!

My next dilemma is the existing sub panel is only 16" tall, having a bottom feed with the wires routed to the top of the bus bars. All the new panels (125 or 200A with a minimum of 30 spaces) are 30" tall at a minimum! While the new box can be mounted higher, for a number of reasons I can't move the panel any lower than it is now. So... it appears the feeds won't be long enough to reach the bus on the top of bus in a new panel. I was thinking I could flip the panel over with the bus connections at the bottom but that doesn't seem to the the standard. Also, due to the current layout with the neutral bar at the bottom most all of the neutrals are cut short. I've already concluded I'm going to have to splice quite a few neutrals in the new panel. Let me know if I'm on the right track or there's a better solution/suggestion. NOTE: I know I could gut the existing panel and use it as a junction box, and mount the new panel to the side but that's not something I want to do in the laundry / utility room. (for me... it would look too hodgepodge.. and I don't want the house to appear any older than it already is)

 

[Stuff]

There is no minimum height for a panel, just maximum height of breaker (6'7"). So you could mount new panel lower and upside-down is fine for most - especially a main lug without main breaker. What is on the other side of the wall? As is a laundry room you have the luxury of being able to remove some drywall. If you also remove from adjacent stud bays you should be able to reroute cables and minimize splices.

 

[Reach4]

If you are not going to upgrade the service, you could just put in a subpanel (maybe 60 amps) to give more breaker places.

 

[Elton Noway]

If you are not going to upgrade the service, you could just put in a subpanel (maybe 60 amps) to give more breaker places.

Since my current sub panel is overloaded... I'm guessing you mean I could mount a new sub panel outside next to the main breaker panel? Yep, that would satisfy the need I have for adding a new breaker / circuit for the split system AC unit but that still leaves me with my current sub panel that is far from compliant.