Help diagnosing well pump problem

[Mark Mallard]

I bought a small home with a well that I'm told has not functioned in three months. The pump is a deep water submersible that has only two wires running into the well cap and down to the pump. All pressure switches have been bypassed for testing purposes and two wire 220 hooks up to the two wire input of the very standard control box. (I have measured 220 across the two leads). The control box should have three leads coming from it, all of which must be used for the control box to have any purpose. (The QD control box senses increased current draw on start up and switches on the red lead to power a secondary start winding in the pump... or it should work that way). Nothing connects to the red wire in the control box. Only the two lead providing 220 do the pump on the two wires connect. So, effectively I have 220 coming into the control box and 220 coming out of the control box. Turn on 220 at the breaker and the pump either runs but does not pump, or just hums, I am unable to determine which.

Since I'm told this setup has always been this way and worked for years, and there was never any connection to the red wire, I take it that this pump worked off of 220 and the red wire was either not needed to kick start a secondary start-up winding in a 3 wire pump OR the pump was replaced at some point with a two wire which has the start-up controls built in. So it pumped water before and now it does not. I am told a pump repair guy came by six months ago and did something in the control box as a TEMPORARY fix, which got the pump to start and it worked for three days. I told the person who claims to observed this, that this was IMPOSSIBLE because 220 goes into the control box, 220 comes out of the control box, and without the red lead running to the well, the box does nothing because it cannot carry the capacitor's charge to the pump on startup along the needed red wire. So the person gets the repair guy on the phone and he states that he did, indeed, swap two wires in the box to make the pump start.

So my question is this, to those familiar with the electrical control boxes.... could this guy have somehow temporarily wired the starting capacitor across the two 220 wires, such that the capacitor was used to kick start the run windings? Then maybe turned the pump off, put all back to normal and the pump was then able to start for awhile before once again needing a kick start?

 

[Reach4]

No experience here, but I would say no to your ending question.

You want to determine if 220 (actually 240) is going to the two wires leading to the pump. The relay and capacitor should be electrically out of the circuit now. If 220 goes to the pump, I would next remove power totally, and check the resistance across the wires. It should be just a few ohms. If it is higher, you could have a broken wire, splice, or a bad pump.

If you don't have 220 going toward the pump, then you will have easy troubleshooting and fixing.

 

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[Valveman]

If that control box has capactors and relay in it, it must have three wires attached to run. There maybe a 4th ground wire but it is not necessary to make it run.

 

[Mark Mallard]

Thanks for your replies. I tried to be as brief as possible so that the post would not be any more rambling than it is. While the main goal is to fix the pump, I figure that is must be replaced in any event. What I am trying to do is solve the mystery of how a self proclaimed "professional" in the area of well pumps could jump start a pump by switching to leads in a control box when the red starter wire is not even connected. According to my meter, there is 220 going into the control box on the blue and yellow input wires and, when the breaker is turned on, 220 comes out of the black and yellow output wires. Since the starter wire is not even hooked up to the pump, my guess is that he must have swapped the red wire and the black output wires and then connected the blue input lead to the other post on the capacitor that the red wire comes out of. If that is done, it places the capacitor inline (series) with the existing two wires going to the run wires of the motor, possible giving a kick that a starter cap provides.

I believe the way it is supposed to function is that normally the relay senses the load at pump start and basically sends 220 in series with the cap down to the starter winding in the pump. When the pump starts, the load goes down and the relay then just sends the input 220 to the output 220 from the control box with no cap in the circuit. So I am just wondering if this "tricK' possibly could have kick started a failing or stuck pump that has the red wire starter line disconnected.

 

[Mark Mallard]

No experience here, but I would say no to your ending question.

You want to determine if 220 (actually 240) is going to the two wires leading to the pump. The relay and capacitor should be electrically out of the circuit now. If 220 goes to the pump, I would next remove power totally, and check the resistance across the wires. It should be just a few ohms. If it is higher, you could have a broken wire, splice, or a bad pump.

Tested 220 goes to the pump and the pump hums or runs (I cannot tell which) but does not pump water. There is just a few ohms across just the two wires connected to the pump with all else being disconnected. So no broken wire, short, etc. The pump COULD be fine and stuck and given that it is reputably reported that switching a wire in the box could unstick the motor, I will probably give that a try since I am set on replacing the pump anyway at this point. It is NOT easy to pull this 300' galvanized pipe line to look at the pump without a crane, etc. Just thought some electrician might pop in here and explain how it is possible or not possible to essentially use the starter capacitor as a run capacitor by switching wires.

 

[Craigpump]

If there are only two wires going to the pump, you don't need the control box.

Reading the ohms between the two motor leads won't tell you if there are shorts, you have to ground one lead from the meter and then test the pump leads seperately.

Hook your 220 directly to the pump wires and turn it on. If you have an amprobe it would helpful to know what the amp draw is.

 

[Mark Mallard]

If there are only two wires going to the pump, you don't need the control box.

Reading the ohms between the two motor leads won't tell you if there are shorts, you have to ground one lead from the meter and then test the pump leads seperately.

Hook your 220 directly to the pump wires and turn it on. If you have an amprobe it would helpful to know what the amp draw is.

Thank you. I am aware that there are two wire pumps (not counting the ground wire apparently unnecessary for operation). My understanding is that these pumps have the control box function built in, i.e. the start capacitor circuit is in the pump. If there is such a pump 300 feet below ground, since the pump IS receiving 220 (measured and the pump hums) I suppose it need s replacing or, at the least, bringing it to the surface for diagnosis, which cost would exceed the pump cost in this case. Also, just because there are two wires apparently running to the pump from the surface does not lead me to conclude that this is a two wire pump. It could be that this is a three wire pump and someone cut or left off the red lead upon installation (maybe they did not have 300' of three conductor wire at installation). I am told, but I am unsure, that a three wire pump will still run off of two wires if there is no substantial load on the pump. But if for whatever reason... a jam, wear, blockage, has now put a load on the three wire pump, it may need the red lead to be wired up. So, it could be a two wire pump and it could be a three wire pump. One thing is pretty clear, with a control box, there must have been a three wire pump down there at one point.

So my question is, can a two wire pump, or a three wire pump running on just two wires, be kick-started by switching two wires in the control box to put the coil across the two existing run leads??? A pump technician says he kick started this very pump six months ago by temporarily swapping two wires.

However, in deducing whether the pump is running or not, an amprobe would be useful here as I believe the pump would be drawing less current if it is running (thus requiring no kickstart) than if it is stuck and humming (in which case my question remains).

 

[Craigpump]

It's possible that someone installed a 3 wire pump on 2 conductor cable, but I don't know why they would do that. There's a better chance that one conductor was cut off, but again unlikely. By looking down the casing with a good flashlight you should be able to see how many conductors there are in the string of wire.

You can't really troubleshoot without an amprobe and ohm meter