Pump having some issues

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FarmerMatt

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So after reading many many threads on here and around the internet I can't seem to find my problem.

I have an irrigation system for my vegatable crops. It is a dug well. I have a check valve down the well on a 1" PVC pipe. That pipe runs approximately 20 feet into a barn where I have my jet pump. From there it goes to a 35 gal (somewhere around 35) bladder tank. The pressure switch is a 30/50. Air pressure in tank was corrected to 28psi (had to let a little out as it was 29.4 when I checked it with the digital gauge).

Symptoms. After priming the pump and getting the initial setup going (same setup as last year with no issues then) the pump runs until around 55ish PSI according to a pressure gauge between the pump and tank. I got nearly the same reading from a digital pressure gauge on the tank's air valve.

So far so good. Then the pump will be off for about 30 seconds and start cycling on for approximately 10-15 seconds then off for close to a minute. Pressure on the gauge doesn't drop nor rise, also confirmed with the digital gauge on the tank's air valve. This cycling will continue non stop with no change on the gauge. At one point (after letting water out of the main outlet pipe) the pressure was sitting at ~40psi and the pump was still cycling as above. The pressure didn't change after I let it cycle around 10-15 times to see what would happen. This cycling is occurring without the water being in use.

What I have tried:

-replaced the check valve in the well.
-checked for leaks, nothing found
-reclamped all my connections.
-opened up air valve on pressure tank with no water return, only air.
-replaced pressure switch with spare. No change.

My other thoughts to try:
-clean out the little hose (and nipples) that goes to the pressure switch.
-teflon tape the plugs on the pump that you prime with. Possibly leaking??? Not seeing any water, maybe air entering the system?
-pressure tank is shot? Even though I didn't get water return. But why are the pressures showing fine?

Was convinced one of those things would have fixed the issue. So now what would be the next step as I can't see the hose cleaning and teflon tape on the plugs being the fix. Does this sound like I should be looking at new pressure tanks?

Thanks
 

Valveman

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If you have a check valve above ground, remove it. If no water is being used the pump should stay off. Might post a pic of the setup as it sounds like a check valve and/or pressure switch is in the wrong location.
 

FarmerMatt

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If you have a check valve above ground, remove it. If no water is being used the pump should stay off. Might post a pic of the setup as it sounds like a check valve and/or pressure switch is in the wrong location.

Check valve is on the end of the intake line down inside the well like a foot valve. No other check valves. Pressure switch is on the side of the pump inside the barn.

I'll try to take a few pics later but here is the order in the meantime. Starting from the intake.

Check valve->20 feet of 1" PVC pipe->pump with 30/50 pressure switch->line to bladder tank with pressure gauge halfway between. ~4 feet total->T fitting to bladder tank-> ~20 feet of outlet pipe to ball valve. Ball valve is the on/off to the rest of the field. Not hooked up to the field yet.

Replaced both the check valve and the pressure switch already with new ones and it is still acting the same.
 

Valveman

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I guess it could be the tank. Check the air charge in the tank with the pump off and all the water drained out. But the pump should not come on unless water is leaking out somewhere.
 

Reach4

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pump with 30/50 pressure switch->line to bladder tank with pressure gauge halfway between. ~4 feet total->T fitting to bladder tank->
It is much better to have the pressure switch at the pressure tank. While the pressure tank on the pump is convenient, it requires a low-pressure-drop path to the pressure tank.

Also, while it is not causing your problem, you would normally set the air precharge to 26 psi with your 30 psi cut-in and a jet pump. It takes a bit for those to start delivering water, so you need the tank to supply the water during that slower response.
 

FarmerMatt

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I guess it could be the tank. Check the air charge in the tank with the pump off and all the water drained out. But the pump should not come on unless water is leaking out somewhere.

Did that. That's when I set it to 28psi. I'll drop it another 2psi to be sure.

That's why I'm puzzled. I don't see a leak anywhere and the pressure isn't dropping even close to the cut in. I watched it doing this when the line was still reading 55psi and again after I let some water out to 40psi.

Starting to think maybe the pressure is dropping in the pump from one of the drain plugs. Would that not show up down the whole line though? Sound possible? I'm going to go out there in a bit and try putting teflon tape around each drain and vent plug and see what that does. Beyond that or the tank slowly becoming waterlogged (but no pressure change??) I'm stumped.
 

FarmerMatt

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It is much better to have the pressure switch at the pressure tank. While the pressure tank on the pump is convenient, it requires a low-pressure-drop path to the pressure tank.

Also, while it is not causing your problem, you would normally set the air precharge to 26 psi with your 30 psi cut-in and a jet pump. It takes a bit for those to start delivering water, so you need the tank to supply the water during that slower response.

So that little hose that runs from the pump centrifuge to the pressure switch should originate further down towards the tank? Makes sense, however, if that is the problem then this problem would be from a drop in the centrifuge but not showing on the gauge past the pump?

That sounds like a good working theory that I'm going to try fixing up here this afternoon.
 

Reach4

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Starting to think maybe the pressure is dropping in the pump from one of the drain plugs. Would that not show up down the whole line though?
Wouldn't that show up as a puddle under the pump?

How about adding a pressure gauge that shows the pressure that the pressure gauge sees?
So that little hose that runs from the pump centrifuge to the pressure switch should originate further down towards the tank?
That should do the trick. So you are thinking to extend the pressure sense tube (whatever it is properly called) to connect near the pressure tank. That should have a nice effect.

When you disconnect that line from where it is now, it would be interesting to put a gauge there instead of a plug. You would see what the pressure switch had been seeing.
 

FarmerMatt

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Wouldn't that show up as a puddle under the pump?

How about adding a pressure gauge that shows the pressure that the pressure gauge sees?

That should do the trick. So you are thinking to extend the pressure sense tube (whatever it is properly called) to connect near the pressure tank. That should have a nice effect.

When you disconnect that line from where it is now, it would be interesting to put a gauge there instead of a plug. You would see what the pressure switch had been seeing.

I am expecting a puddle, but not seeing one. There was condensation on the pump from the cold well water, but not a significant amount to call it a leak or puddling.

If/when I end up extending the "pressure sense tubing" I'll do that and add a gauge to the old plug on the pump. Good idea, thanks ;)
 

Reach4

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The other thing to consider is to put a new pressure switch on a tee at the tank. Wire around the pressure switch on the pump.

One thing that bothers me is that your cycling is for like 15 seconds. The cycling from pressure switch sensing far from the pressure tank is usually much much shorter cycling. So your main symptom is probably from another problem.

With no water being used, does the pump eventually cut off and stay off? If not, then there is a leak . Is the leak down the hole, or is it on the output side? You probably have a valve that isolates the water output after the pressure tank. Close that and see the effect.
 

Valveman

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What kind of pump do you have? If you are sure there is not a check valve between the pump and tank, it might be a self priming or other type pump that has a check valve built into the pump. Cause it sure sounds like a check valve leaking.
 

FarmerMatt

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Well I tried teflon taping the plugs, went over all the connections again. Checked the check valve, checked the bladder pressure after filling the system then draining it. Everything checked out ok.

Then realized another issue. My pump size and gpm. When watering each zone I will require just over 8.5 gpm. So with this mystery problem and the undersized pump I went out and used the old credit card. Bought a new 3/4 horse and a new 35 gal pressure tank. I have it half plumbed together now and a fresh start with some new pipes should help as well as just look nicer. Most of it was put together quickly last season with little concern for organization rather functionality.

The check valve and pipe down the well are staying the same for now as I just replaced it a couple of days ago. The line out past the T from the tank will stay the same as well. We shall see if that causes a problem.

I have a new T for the pressure gauge between the pump and tank that is a lot cleaner.

Wasted half the day toying around with the system. Had to bite the bullet and just start over.

I haven't tipped the old tank upside down yet. I want to see if water comes out the valve when it's flipped.


Reach4 - it never stayed off completely. When I first noticed it I believed it had cycled all night. The valve on the output is right after the tank. I didn't (still don't yet) have it connected to the field line. So it was completely isolated. I pulled the line in the well completely out and went over it inch by inch as well as the connection to the check valve and the valve itself. Nothing abnormal found.

Valveman - not sure the brand, but I am almost positive it doesn't have a check valve built in. I was able to open the output valve and have the water drain out the intake hole on the pump...then again, maybe that wasn't supposed to be able to happen and there should be a functioning check valve built in. You might be on to something there.

My other idea was that in the absence of a puddle forming from a leak, maybe there was somehow a slow air entry causing it to loose prime. Not sure if that theory make any sense. Very limited knowledge on these.

I'll be taking the old pump for servicing and see if they find something wrong. If they give it the all clear at least I'll have a backup pump, lower gpm but something to hold me over for a bit if need be.

I will update after the new system is up and running and see if it really is a leak somewhere in the lines I just can't find.

Thanks for the help.
 

trotter13

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Well I tried teflon taping the plugs, went over all the connections again. Checked the check valve, checked the bladder pressure after filling the system then draining it. Everything checked out ok.

Then realized another issue. My pump size and gpm. When watering each zone I will require just over 8.5 gpm. So with this mystery problem and the undersized pump I went out and used the old credit card. Bought a new 3/4 horse and a new 35 gal pressure tank. I have it half plumbed together now and a fresh start with some new pipes should help as well as just look nicer. Most of it was put together quickly last season with little concern for organization rather functionality.

The check valve and pipe down the well are staying the same for now as I just replaced it a couple of days ago. The line out past the T from the tank will stay the same as well. We shall see if that causes a problem.

I have a new T for the pressure gauge between the pump and tank that is a lot cleaner.

Wasted half the day toying around with the system. Had to bite the bullet and just start over.

I haven't tipped the old tank upside down yet. I want to see if water comes out the valve when it's flipped.


Reach4 - it never stayed off completely. When I first noticed it I believed it had cycled all night. The valve on the output is right after the tank. I didn't (still don't yet) have it connected to the field line. So it was completely isolated. I pulled the line in the well completely out and went over it inch by inch as well as the connection to the check valve and the valve itself. Nothing abnormal found.

Valveman - not sure the brand, but I am almost positive it doesn't have a check valve built in. I was able to open the output valve and have the water drain out the intake hole on the pump...then again, maybe that wasn't supposed to be able to happen and there should be a functioning check valve built in. You might be on to something there.

My other idea was that in the absence of a puddle forming from a leak, maybe there was somehow a slow air entry causing it to loose prime. Not sure if that theory make any sense. Very limited knowledge on these.

I'll be taking the old pump for servicing and see if they find something wrong. If they give it the all clear at least I'll have a backup pump, lower gpm but something to hold me over for a bit if need be.

I will update after the new system is up and running and see if it really is a leak somewhere in the lines I just can't find.

Well update already its 2019!
Thanks for the help.
 

Midriller

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Is your pressure switch opening when the pump shuts off or does the switch stay closed and the pump just starts cycling. To me this seems less of a plumbing issue more of thermal protection. If the pressure switch is indeed staying closed. when the pump starts cycling, shut off the breaker and wait 5 or 10 mins then flick it back on. If its electrical issue the pump should run for a bit then start cycling again. If its plumbing it should cycle
immediately.
 

trotter13

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Is your pressure switch opening when the pump shuts off or does the switch stay closed and the pump just starts cycling. To me this seems less of a plumbing issue more of thermal protection. If the pressure switch is indeed staying closed. when the pump starts cycling, shut off the breaker and wait 5 or 10 mins then flick it back on. If its electrical issue the pump should run for a bit then start cycling again. If its plumbing it should cycle
immediately.
Thanks will try it out.
 
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