Have quotes for Fleck 7000sxt and Autotrol 268-760

[corysold]

Both seem like good softeners and I'm just wondering if there is a deciding factor between the two.

I have city water.
6 grains hardness.
1 ppm chlorine
0 iron
80-120 ppm TDS

1" copper on existing unit that is being replaced.

10 person household (4 adults and some small kids now, but looking for system I can grow with)

Both recommended 48,000 units for flow rate more than softening needs, though one thought I could do a smaller unit if I wanted to.

Also, both quotes came in about $600 more than it appears I can buy either unit online for and install myself. Is there a reason for this (they are buying different quality etc.) or is that the going markup for installation?

Also, should I upgrade to the 10% resin to help with the chlorine?

Which model would you choose or is there a better 3rd option you would suggest?

 

[Reach4]

Yes, upgrade to the 10% resin.

I would add a whole-house cartridge filter at the front end to take out sediment. I think maybe a 10x4.5 inch Big Blue. I like 20x4.5 for well users, and maybe even 10x4.5 is overkill for city water users. I would also have a bypass plumbed in around the filter. I did not have a bypass put around my filters, so I keep extra O-rings because a filter leak would put my water out of commission until I fixed it. With my well water I go over a year before changing filter cartridges. I might consider the Watts WH-LD Premier Whole House Filter. What looks nice is that it has a built-in bypass valve. The clear housing is a mixed blessing. It is nice to be able to see the cartridge, but clear sumps are not as strong as not-clear.

So as to which controller to go for, I have mixed thoughts. Either should work well. The 7000SXT would have adjustability of the various cycles, and uses soft water for brine refill. While the 5600SXT does not use soft water brine refill either, and it does not have the full port internal size, the pressure drop would be fairly small I think.

The $600 is not all markup. About $300 is for installation labor and materials. About $300 is to cover the labor of designing, ordering, and providing the the services that you already received from the "free" visits. Some may have staff. All of them have mouths to feed and business expenses. If you had 3 on-site quotes, 3 people spent a significant time analyzing your system and applying design efforts for you. Each had at most a 33% chance of getting anything out of that work.... and since you are now considering to buy from somebody else, it is more like a 17% chance of getting the order.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[corysold]

Thank you for the reply. I will look into the filters as well.

I was also very upfront that I was also looking at potentially DIY and had them out to see if an old softener could be saved from the previous owner. I offered to pay both gentlemen for their services and both refused saying they offered free consultations.

 

[ditttohead]

I would recommend the 7000 over the Autotrol. Both are excellent valves and you cant go wrong with either one.

I am not much of a fan of pre-filters on the front side of softeners. Municipal supplies tend to do adequate jobs of floccing in order to reduce sediment from the water so this is rarely a concern and it adds additional cost, maintenance, and service potential in the future. Modern Fleck and Clack softeners are designed to handle these trace amounts of sediment that may find its way into your system.

As to the clear filter, this is also not recommended. Ask any experienced field technician if they would have a clear filter housing... I doubt any of them would recommend it in a municipal application where water pressure can vary significantly compared to a well. The high pressures that can occasionally happen with municipal supplies can be very problematic with clear sumps. Well applications are a different story where the homeowner is in charge of regulating the PSI. Even with a regulator in a municipal application, when the regulator fails, so can the clear sump.

Totally agree with the three valve bypass around the filter if one is installed. When the filter leaks or fails, it needs to be easily bypassed.

10%, absolutely! It is worth the very small upgrade cost. Resin can handle chlorine, but the damage is cumulative. Consider that an average household uses over 100,000 gallons of water per year, at 1 ppm, the resin has to handle 100,000 total ppm of chlorine. 10% resin is more capable of handling the chlorine.

 

[Reach4]

I am not much of a fan of pre-filters on the front side of softeners.

When I was on city water, I got some sand in my aerator screens. Not a lot, but these screens were not 1, or even 50, micron filters either. After the rare condition where they dug up the main for a repair, I would get the tag on the front door and could sometimes see visible darkening of the early water.

Maybe checking your aerator screens could be interesting.

I worry about the teflon-coated brass piston.

 

[ditttohead]

The tiny amounts of debris typically flow right around the piston/seals/spacers. The cost of rebuilding the valve vs. the potential headaches and cost of the BB simply don't add up. The system is designed to handle municipal supplies. The only time anything would get around the softener is during regeneration cycle when the system is internally bypassing hard untreated water to the house.

 

[corysold]

The 7000sxt appears a bit less expensive than the Autotrol, so a double plus if it gets your pick.

I'm looking at purchasing through qualitywaterforless.com. Is there any reason I should avoid them or any other sites I should be looking at?

 

[corysold]

I'd like a second opinion on sizing if possible.

Originally, we were sizing based off of 10 people at the 60-70 gallons per person. Both thought I could have gotten by with a 36,000, but recommended a 48,000 for any future usage.

However, we just got our first water bill and we averaged 374 gallons per day. Our hardness is 6. That equates to well below the threshold for a 24,000 grain unit from what I see online. We have 4 adults and 6 kids, current ages 9,7,5,4,2 and infant. So I'm guessing our water usage will go up, but my inlaws won't be around for ever either.

So even if we almost doubled to 600 gallons per day in the future, it would seem that still puts us between a 24 and 36. Is a 48,000 unit going to be too large for us? One tech was worried about flow rates with potentially 4 bathrooms at once, but I guess I'm just concerned at 48,000 grain unit is too large and I should be looking at 36,000. Any thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

You are on city water. IMO, you will be better off with the 1.5 cubic ft of resin ("48000 grain" but really 30000 in good practice) , unless saving those few dollars is a big deal or saving a rather small amount of space is important. The 10x54 inch tank does not take much floor space. If you have significant iron in your water, there can be a reason to go smaller. With a bigger unit, you will regenerate less often. But you don't have that iron with your city water. Go for the 10% crosslinked resin. The bigger unit will be a little bit more efficient.

 

[Bannerman]

A larger softener generally operates more efficiently than a smaller unit.

A 1.5 cuft unit would require 9 lbs (@6 lbs/cuft) of salt to regenerate 30,000 grains of usable capacity whereas a 1 cuft softener would require 15 lbs to regenerate an equal 30,000 grains capacity. A 2 cuft unit would need 12 lbs (@6 lbs/cuft) to regenerate 40,000 grains capacity.

At your current 374 gallons/day consumption X 6 grains/gallon = 2,244 grains per day softening capacity required, but expect that to increase as the children become older. 30,000 / 2244 = 13 days between regeneration cycles whereas 40,000 / 2244 = 17 days

As your water supply is a municipal chlorinated source, iron will not be a concern so an extended regeneration frequency of up to 30 days would be permissible.

In addition, a larger softener will allow for higher flow rate before some hardness will 'leak' through the softener to the fixtures. The flow rate supported is a primary consideration when a home has multiple bathrooms and many people, as numerous residents could be utilizing water at the same time. A 1 cuft unit will support up to 9 gpm, 1.5 cuft up to 12 gpm and 2 cuft up to 14 gpm.