Ground on water pipes question

[GoldDiamond]

Hello! (This is my first time installing a water softener, i know little about plumbing and electrical, but learning as i go. Please excuse me if these are dumb questions)

I am installing a new water softener in place of one that was already in the same spot.

So there is the 1"? water pipes that come out of the wall .. and then there is a 2 ft copper tube that hooked up to the wall pipes and ran to the bypass valve on the water softener, that is where the ground clamps are (on the 2ft pipe NOT the main water lines coming from the wall). (see pic below)

The new 2 ft. pipes that i got are corrugated stainless steel, should i put the ground clamps on the stainless steel, or do they need to be connected to copper? (the steel is corrugated (groovy) and there is a small 1" flat spot on the top and bottom of connectors.) If they need to be on copper then i was thinking of hooking them right where the pipe comes out of the wall (only about 2 in of pipe there), is that a okay spot?! (see pic below, you can see where i took a razor blade and made it bare copper)

Another question i had is , is it bad if the ground wire that goes in between the clamps or the clamps themselves happen to get wet, say if the water softener leaks or something? can that cause problems like shock or ruining electrical in the house or am i just overthinking things?!

Also anything i need to know when moving the ground clamps to another spot ( like i need to do something so i don't get shocked etc) or just unscrew them and put them in the new spot and im good to go?

If im missing anything, like how to do something properly then please let me know!

Thanks for your help!!

3 pictures to better understand what im describing:
https://imgur.com/a/47h3Mvc
https://imgur.com/a/CP50G3x
https://imgur.com/a/iGnpusR

 

[Reach4]

that is where the ground clamps are (on the 2ft pipe NOT the main water lines coming from the wall). (see pic below)

To be clear, are you talking about clamps for a wire that connects to the breaker box?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bgard]

The clamps are for bonding the water piping across the softener if it were plastic. Put them back on where the pipes come out of the wall and put a piece of #8 bare copper wire between them, there will be no chance of electric shock in less there were something wrong with your electric system at the main panel

 

[GoldDiamond]

To be clear, are you talking about clamps for a wire that connects to the breaker box?

Hey Reach4, the 2 clamps don't connect to the breaker box, i think they are just to keep the water pipes grounded? It is 2 clamps with a copper wire attached at the top of each clamp. I will try to describe it better, so there is the 2 copper pipes coming out of the wall (in and out water line). Then there is the bypass valve that comes out of the back of the water softener, and what connects the bypass valve to the main water lines out of the wall is (2) 2 ft flexible copper pipes. The 2 ground clamps are on the 2ft pipes.

 

[GoldDiamond]

The clamps are for bonding the water piping across the softener if it were plastic. Put them back on where the pipes come out of the wall and put a piece of #8 bare copper wire between them, there will be no chance of electric shock in less there were something wrong with your electric system at the main panel

Thanks for the reply bgard! In the manual for the softener is says to use #4 copper wire, i already bought it. Im assuming you have experience with this, Would you recommend i use #8 instead? It would be no problem for me to get new wire. Also, lets say something happens with the water softener and water gets on the clamps or wire in between the clamps can that cause any issues like shock or anything to worry about? or is it just bonding the 2 water pipes together so doesn't matter if it happens to get wet? thanks

 

[Jadnashua]

There's a difference between grounding something and bonding it to ground. The difference may be subtle in some ways, but serve different functions.

A ground wire in an electrical circuit is a safety path...it should never have current (and therefore voltage) on it except in a fault. It is there to provide a low resistance path to trip a circuit breaker or fuse in case of a problem in the normal current carrying wires (the hot(s) and neutral). Bonding something to ground is done to help ensure voltage cannot be developed across the device/circuit/path. This can help especially if there's say a lightning strike nearby and can be important if there's a non-conductive section between metallic conductors - say a plastic filter housing or a section of pex, or cpvc, or something like a typical water softener connected to copper piping. Bonding it to ground will keep the voltage down on that path. If you have a voltage there under normal circumstances, it can mask a major safety hazard. It doesn't hurt to check before working on things, but it should not have any effect under normal circumstances.

Generally, your metallic pipes should not be THE ground for your electrical system, but be bonded to it.

The smaller the gauge number, the larger the diameter of the wire and the lower it's resistance (and therefore, its current carrying capacity) will be.

Electrical code may list a particular gauge for a task, but it also defers to the device's installation instructions, so if the thing calls for one gauge, use that (or larger), never smaller (thinner).

 

[Bgard]

Thanks for the reply bgard! In the manual for the softener is says to use #4 copper wire, i already bought it. Im assuming you have experience with this, Would you recommend i use #8 instead? It would be no problem for me to get new wire. Also, lets say something happens with the water softener and water gets on the clamps or wire in between the clamps can that cause any issues like shock or anything to worry about? or is it just bonding the 2 water pipes together so doesn't matter if it happens to get wet? thanks

the #4 is a thicker gauge it will work fine getting wet will not hurt anything as long as the clamps are tight so no corosion can form at the connections

 

[WorthFlorida]

Not sure if it was answered but do not clamp to the flexible SS lines. You want to clamp the jumper wire copper to copper.

 

[LLigetfa]

Generally, your metallic pipes should not be THE ground for your electrical system, but be bonded to it.

True, but that is/was not always the case and a heavier wire cannot hurt. I've seen where the neutral to a building failed and the copper pipe was carrying all the unbalanced current for the building. There was enough current to heat the water in the pipe.

I like to put the clamps onto the belled sweat fitting where there is more material rather than directly on the pipe JIC there is corrosion at the contact point.

 

[GoldDiamond]

There's a difference between grounding something and bonding it to ground. The difference may be subtle in some ways, but serve different functions.

A ground wire in an electrical circuit is a safety path...it should never have current (and therefore voltage) on it except in a fault. It is there to provide a low resistance path to trip a circuit breaker or fuse in case of a problem in the normal current carrying wires (the hot(s) and neutral). Bonding something to ground is done to help ensure voltage cannot be developed across the device/circuit/path. This can help especially if there's say a lightning strike nearby and can be important if there's a non-conductive section between metallic conductors - say a plastic filter housing or a section of pex, or cpvc, or something like a typical water softener connected to copper piping. Bonding it to ground will keep the voltage down on that path. If you have a voltage there under normal circumstances, it can mask a major safety hazard. It doesn't hurt to check before working on things, but it should not have any effect under normal circumstances.

Generally, your metallic pipes should not be THE ground for your electrical system, but be bonded to it.

The smaller the gauge number, the larger the diameter of the wire and the lower it's resistance (and therefore, its current carrying capacity) will be.

Electrical code may list a particular gauge for a task, but it also defers to the device's installation instructions, so if the thing calls for one gauge, use that (or larger), never smaller (thinner).

Thanks for the reply! Im a little confused on "If you have a voltage there under normal circumstances, it can mask a major safety hazard. It doesn't hurt to check before working on things, but it should not have any effect under normal circumstances." ... Are you saying that i should use a multimeter to check water lines for voltage? and if there is voltage there may be a problem? or am i misunderstanding things?!

 

[GoldDiamond]

True, but that is/was not always the case and a heavier wire cannot hurt. I've seen where the neutral to a building failed and the copper pipe was carrying all the unbalanced current for the building. There was enough current to heat the water in the pipe.

I like to put the clamps onto the belled sweat fitting where there is more material rather than directly on the pipe JIC there is corrosion at the contact point.

Thanks for the reply! You bring up a good point of, what if there was corrosion. Which makes me second guess putting the ground clamps right where the water pipes come out of the wall, because if they did corrode over time it would be more effort to knock out the wall and re-solder pipes in. I attached a picture that shows all the possible spots i can put the clamps. The first spot is right where the pipes come out of the wall. The second spot is on the 90 degree elbow. And the 3rd spot is just below the elbow, there is a copper pipe that was soldered in to downsize the pipe size to allow a threaded fitting (the thread fitting is where the new 2ft flexible stainless steel pipes will connect to, and run from there to the bypass valve coming out of the back of the water softener.) Here is the picture https://imgur.com/a/zMQufJA

Let me know where you think is the best spot for the clamps. Thanks!

 

[LLigetfa]

The second spot is on the 90 degree elbow.

There where you have double thickness.

 

[Jadnashua]

Someone on here mentioned that when replacing a water heater, once the thing was disconnected, there was line voltage on the pipe. While connected, assuming copper pipes running out of the house, that would be a path to ground, and you wouldn't get harmed unless YOU became a better path for that current. It doesn't hurt to be careful when cutting a copper pipe in the system to check for voltage to a known good ground.

Again, you generally want to BOND the pipes to ground, but they should not (with today's code, not necessarily what WAS the code) be the ground for your system. WHen you have some disconnects, i.e., say CPVC or PEX in the middle of a run, it can become impossible to bond the whole separate sections of copper pipe.