Gotta hold the lever to complete flush

Users who are viewing this thread

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
Hi, We remodeled our bathroom a couple years ago and part the remodel was moving the toilet and all the waste and supply to the other side of the room. The waste is all new 4" ABS with 1.5" vent in wall directly behind the toilet. We used a Kohler 1 piece 1.28 gal toilet that when I flush it in order to get a complete flush, I have to hold the lever down for a few seconds or else it will only do sort of a half flush. (The flapper closes before the tank can empty). On top of the bowl rim where is says Kohler, in small print under Kohler it states 1.28 gal per flush or less. Does that mean it is designed to be a dual flush like some Toto toilets I've seen that have a #1 and a #2 flush? Toto accomplishes this with 2 separate buttons in the ones I've seen. Is this Kohlers attempt at this by having to hold the lever down longer for a #2 flush? I spoke with a woman at Kohler and she had me check the float mechanism and all seemed to be OK so she said the only other possibility is that the toilet was not vented properly. I find that hard to believe since there is a 1.5" vent directly behind it. She didn't mention anything about a dual flush feature.
Any advice is appreciated.

santa_rosa_taylor1.jpg


K-3810

santa_rosa_taylor7.jpg


Inside the tank of the Santa Rosa
 
Last edited by a moderator:

WJcandee

Wise One
Messages
3,181
Reaction score
170
Points
63
Location
New York, NY
The toilet tank on a modern toilet isn't supposed to empty. It's supposed to go about 1/2 down. The reason why has been explained literally 1000 times on here.

A "complete flush" is when the bowl evacuates the waste and refills. If it's doing that, despite not draining the tank, it is working as designed.
 
Last edited:

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
The toilet tank isn't supposed to empty. It's supposed to go about 1/2 down. The reason why has been explained literally 1000 times on here.

A "complete flush" is when the bowl evacuates the waste and refills. If it's doing that, despite not draining the tank, it is working as designed.
It does not evacuate the waste completely (especially a #2) unless the lever is held down for a couple seconds. My other 2 piece 1.6 gal Kohler in my other bathroom (both bathrooms ground floor slab on grade) empties completely when the lever is pushed all the way down and then released without holding it down for an extra couple of seconds. On that toilet, the flapper stays up until the tank is completely empty (other than the water left at the very bottom that is below the rim of the tank drain).
 

WJcandee

Wise One
Messages
3,181
Reaction score
170
Points
63
Location
New York, NY
Most 1.28gpf toilets don't empty the tank. Maybe your Kohlers do because they have been miscalibrated, or maybe Kohler on those models didn't do that. Are they flapper or canister flush? Your plumber might have just put a floatier flapper in there to defeat the water-saving system. I have seen that done a bunch. It's stupid, illegal, and unnecessary. Although some of the earlier water-saving Kohlers were really and truly terrible at flushing. I owned one and replaced it with a Toto -- one of the greatest days of my life. On that one, no amount of water would get the waste through its poorly-designed trapway.

Clue: it's rarely the amount of water used that determines how effective the bowl is at clearing waste -- it's the design of the trapways. Kohlers sucked. Totos rocked. Now all manufacturers have followed Toto and tried to design better trapways, with some success.

Toto has moved on to design a toilet that does a remarkable job with 1.0gpf. That celebrity who came out today and said that she wasn't flushing her pee now (which is a terrible idea because it will cause all sorts of hard crystal deposits in her toilet trapways) should just get a Toto 1.0. Maybe that will become the hot new Hollywood accessory.

As to the "or less" language on the bowl, it's there for the government to meet the water savings requirements. The toilet you bought most likely was designed as a 1.28gpf. It does NOT mean that it was intended as a dual-flush. But tell us the model numbers and we will confirm for you. Toto now uses the same bowl for the 1.6 and the 1.28 Drakes. It will flush on 1.28; the 1.6 is just for those who for some reason still want it.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Any toilet can be made to use more water than designed if you hold the handle down until the tank is empty. If you do that, you WILL be using more water than designed on any toilet made in the last 30-years or so. Now, how well it will work with the allocated amount of water depends on how well the whole toilet was designed. Some are just plain lousy at it. Toto seems to have figured it out which makes sense as they are an international company supplying toilets to may areas where water is a major concern (as it has started to become here in the USA). For a toilet to be considered a true 2-stage flusher, the smaller amount must be capable of fully emptying and refilling the bowl so that there is not just dilution, but evacuation of all of the waste. This generally means that it will have a smaller surface area OR a shallower bowl to keep the volume down. Both of those things can be a source of complaints as the water may not cover a big dump or you leave more surface area unwetted, and it cannot literally be washed as well as older designs that used maybe 8x as much water (some really old toilets could use nearly 8-gallons...the newest use less than one). Keep in mind that it is not only the design that is important, it is the quality and consistency of the manufacturing. In this area as well, Toto has been quite consistent in producing a quality product. Unfortunately, that has not been shown to be the case of some of the well-known manufacturers we used to depend on.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Any toilet can be made to use more water than designed if you hold the handle down until the tank is empty. If you do that, you WILL be using more water than designed on any toilet made in the last 30-years or so. Now, how well it will work with the allocated amount of water depends on how well the whole toilet was designed. Some are just plain lousy at it. Toto seems to have figured it out which makes sense as they are an international company supplying toilets to may areas where water is a major concern (as it has started to become here in the USA). For a toilet to be considered a true 2-stage flusher, the smaller amount must be capable of fully emptying and refilling the bowl so that there is not just dilution, but evacuation of all of the waste. This generally means that it will have a smaller surface area OR a shallower bowl to keep the volume down. Both of those things can be a source of complaints as the water may not cover a big dump or you leave more surface area unwetted, and it cannot literally be washed as well as older designs that used maybe 8x as much water (some really old toilets could use nearly 8-gallons...the newest use less than one). Keep in mind that it is not only the design that is important, it is the quality and consistency of the manufacturing. In this area as well, Toto has been quite consistent in producing a quality product. Unfortunately, that has not been shown to be the case of some of the well-known manufacturers we used to depend on.
 

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
Most 1.28gpf toilets don't empty the tank. Maybe your Kohlers do because they have been miscalibrated, or maybe Kohler on those models didn't do that. Are they flapper or canister flush? Your plumber might have just put a floatier flapper in there to defeat the water-saving system. I have seen that done a bunch. It's stupid, illegal, and unnecessary. Although some of the earlier water-saving Kohlers were really and truly terrible at flushing. I owned one and replaced it with a Toto -- one of the greatest days of my life. On that one, no amount of water would get the waste through its poorly-designed trapway.

Clue: it's rarely the amount of water used that determines how effective the bowl is at clearing waste -- it's the design of the trapways. Kohlers sucked. Totos rocked. Now all manufacturers have followed Toto and tried to design better trapways, with some success.

Toto has moved on to design a toilet that does a remarkable job with 1.0gpf. That celebrity who came out today and said that she wasn't flushing her pee now (which is a terrible idea because it will cause all sorts of hard crystal deposits in her toilet trapways) should just get a Toto 1.0. Maybe that will become the hot new Hollywood accessory.

As to the "or less" language on the bowl, it's there for the government to meet the water savings requirements. The toilet you bought most likely was designed as a 1.28gpf. It does NOT mean that it was intended as a dual-flush. But tell us the model numbers and we will confirm for you. Toto now uses the same bowl for the 1.6 and the 1.28 Drakes. It will flush on 1.28; the 1.6 is just for those who for some reason still want it.

The Model is the Santa Rosa (K3810) and according to the Kohler website it is a single flush. It is a canister type not flapper. It is all original guts, nothing modified or replaced since new.

The point is, for #2, it does not flush enough water to evacuate adequately unless you hold the lever down for that extra 1 or 2 seconds. For #1 it's probably adequate.

I'm a General Contractor and I do a lot of bathroom remodels and I always recommend Toto for the reasons you mentioned, but the Kohler I used on my remodel was a leftover from a job that I got at no cost. It works perfectly fine except you have to hold the lever down and extra second or 2 to get a complete flush. Maybe I'll change out the flush assembly with a Korky.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
You could raise the fill water level. You might have to extend the overflow tube.
 

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
I would guess that there is something in the trapway slowing things down.
I have installed them before and they flush fine with 1.28 gallons on solid waste.
How about running an auger down that to make sure there is nothing slowing things down?

I don't think that's the problem because if I do hold down the lever for that extra 1 or 2 seconds, it flushes fine with absolutely no evidence of any blockage in the trapway.

Some have said that it is only supposed to empty half the tank during a flush, which is what it does if I release the lever immediately. But that doesn't seem to be enough water, or correct. Why would they make the tank hold x amount but only use x/2? For the additional weight of the extra water? My other Kohler toilet in my other bathroom empties the entire tank when a flush is done even when releasing the lever immediately.
 
Last edited:

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
IF the toilet flushes fine when you hold the handle down, but does NOT when you flush it normally:
- it is either not filling the tank or the bowl properly. Doesn't normally happen unless you change the flapper or valve to a non-OEM one
- it's a lousy toilet
- there's something trapped, but that normally wouldn't allow it to flush regardless of how you hold the handle
- there's mineral building in the passageways, slowing the flow and not generating the proper siphoning effect until excess water is used.

Some toilet flappers come with a float. On some of those, the float can become unclicked and then get trapped in the internal passage, preventing the full water flow volume or velocity out of the tank, which can make it not flush well.

So, essentially two things: something caught, or incorrect adjustment if it's fixable. A lousy toilet, if not.
 

WJcandee

Wise One
Messages
3,181
Reaction score
170
Points
63
Location
New York, NY
Jim raised one other good point for the original poster. One reason toilets don't flush properly on the regular amount of water is that they aren't starting with a bowl that has been properly-refilled. Is the refill hose pointed down into the canister assembly from above, and is water running in to refill your bowl? If you slowly pour a couple of cups of water into the bowl and the level rises and then settles to its natural settle point (all toilets have one), and you mark that place with a pencil, does the bowl refill to that level and stay there? If not, you need more refill water. That could be the result of having replaced a fill valve previously with a plain-vanilla Fluidmaster 400A or a white-top Korky 528, which may not provide a high-enough percentage refill water.
 

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
IF the toilet flushes fine when you hold the handle down, but does NOT when you flush it normally:
- it is either not filling the tank or the bowl properly. Doesn't normally happen unless you change the flapper or valve to a non-OEM one
- it's a lousy toilet
- there's something trapped, but that normally wouldn't allow it to flush regardless of how you hold the handle
- there's mineral building in the passageways, slowing the flow and not generating the proper siphoning effect until excess water is used.

Some toilet flappers come with a float. On some of those, the float can become unclicked and then get trapped in the internal passage, preventing the full water flow volume or velocity out of the tank, which can make it not flush well.

So, essentially two things: something caught, or incorrect adjustment if it's fixable. A lousy toilet, if not.

If what you claim is true, I'd have to go with "Lousy Toilet" because it has been this way since it was newly installed and everything is original.

What about the possibility that it is not vented properly, which is what the people at Kohler said was the likely cause? After walking me through the adjustment process, that was the only thing left according to the person I spoke to.
 

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
Jim raised one other good point for the original poster. One reason toilets don't flush properly on the regular amount of water is that they aren't starting with a bowl that has been properly-refilled. Is the refill hose pointed down into the canister assembly from above, and is water running in to refill your bowl? If you slowly pour a couple of cups of water into the bowl and the level rises and then settles to its natural settle point (all toilets have one), and you mark that place with a pencil, does the bowl refill to that level and stay there? If not, you need more refill water. That could be the result of having replaced a fill valve previously with a plain-vanilla Fluidmaster 400A or a white-top Korky 528, which may not provide a high-enough percentage refill water.
I will check on this and report back.
 

Gregavi

New Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
California
I have checked the natural settle point and it seems like the toilet is filling the bowl to the proper level. So we can check that off the list as the potential culprit.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,459
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
If what you claim is true, I'd have to go with "Lousy Toilet" because it has been this way since it was newly installed and everything is original.

I have seen newly installed toilets that have the wax seal blocking the exit and have been used for a waste basket.
You asked, and my answer was to run a closet auger down the bowl. Until you have done that, it's just conjecture.

auger_01.jpg


This is what we use.

auger_02.jpg
 

Wallijonn

Member
Messages
335
Reaction score
15
Points
18
Location
Arizona
The hard way would be to swap the toilet with a known working one in another room. If the swapped in toilet does the same thing, then the waste pipe isn't angling downwards or there is an obstruction, like a tree branch. If the other room you swapped the toilet into now has the problem then it is the toilet. You can snake the toilet and hope you find a kid's toy or a shaving razor, but if it comes up clean then it is probably a defective toilet bowl. Or a bad design.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks