Glowing LEDs

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TripleJBrandt

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I recently replaced a ceiling fan and light kit using LED bulbs (we had used incandescent and, most recently, CFL bulbs in the old kit). The fixture is on a circuit with three wall switches controlling and seemed to be working properly with the old fixture. But the new fixture's LED bulbs glow faintly and flicker when the circuit should be open. It is so faint that it has to be dark in order to see the glow, but it's there unless we shut it off with the pull-chain on the light kit. I'm guessing we didn't notice the problem before because it's a small voltage and the LED's show it when the other bulbs wouldn't? Could this be a wall switch going bad? Thanks for any help!
 

WorthFlorida

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I have no idea on this but here are my thoughts but we need a little more information.

With three switches two there will be 2-three way switches and one will be a four way switch. How it gets wired depends if the power is from one wall switch or the ceiling box for the fan. Doubtful that a wall switch can cause this and switches are bad or good, nothing in between unless you can physically feel the switch snap is not smooth and clean.

You can get a voltage on the neutral with power off if the circuit is feed from two breakers with a 14/3 or 12/3 cable. The neutral is shared by both circuits. With power on one circuit and anything power on this circuit, the neutral is carrying current. If you open the neutral you will read voltage between this open connection. Some electricians call it backfeed.

I have to say I had something very similar with two three way switches. My son bought a house and where they decided to place the kitchen table was in a room that was originally a family room. There was ceiling box and one wall switch. So we added some wiring and 2-three way switches. I disconnected the existing power in the ceiling box that ran through this box to other rooms and brought power from the wall switch from another circuit. With the circuit breaker off and as I was connecting the chandelier I was getting a tickle of voltage. I put a voltmeter on it and there was voltage but I do not remember the value. I did about everything I could think off and never found the cause. With the breaker turned on everything worked normal. If I turned off one other breaker the voltage cleared. At that time I never found the cause and the house still has not burned down. I think it was backfeed and I explained above.

You may be into something that's the same and the LED driver in the lamp is passing it through at minimal output. An LED is on or off. For dimming the rate of switching it on and off (duration between the off and on) and you're seeing an average.

1) Does this fan/lights have any kind of remote?
2) Do any of the switches have speed control and/or dimming light capability?
3) Do the lights do this faint glow with the fan motor On or Off?
4) Were these three switches installed by you or someone else or they were there before you owned the home?
5) Do these switches control the fan motor, just the lights or both?
6) What else is on this circuit?

Out of curiosity unscrew the LEDS during this low glow mode and I'm sure the glow stops. Open the canopy and disconnect the power to the motor (black wire) and again check this faint glow. If the fan is wired hot so the pull chain operates the motor and the switches only operte the lights, this voltage check and disconnect can be done at one wall switch where the the power comes from. Measure the voltage between the neutral and the blue wire while the light switches are turn off.
 
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TripleJBrandt

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I have no idea on this but here are my thoughts but we need a little more information.

With three switches two there will be 2-three way switches and one will be a four way switch. How it gets wired depends if the power is from one wall switch or the ceiling box for the fan. Doubtful that a wall switch can cause this and switches are bad or good, nothing in between unless you can physically feel the switch snap is not smooth and clean.

You can get a voltage on the neutral with power off if the circuit is feed from two breakers with a 14/3 or 12/3 cable. The neutral is shared by both circuits. With power on one circuit and anything power on this circuit, the neutral is carrying current. If you open the neutral you will read voltage between this open connection. Some electricians call it backfeed.

I have to say I had something very similar with two three way switches. My son bought a house and where they decided to place the kitchen table was in a room that was originally a family room. There was ceiling box and one wall switch. So we added some wiring and 2-three way switches. I disconnected the existing power in the ceiling box that ran through this box to other rooms and brought power from the wall switch from another circuit. With the circuit breaker off and as I was connecting the chandelier I was getting a tickle of voltage. I put a voltmeter on it and there was voltage but I do not remember the value. I did about everything I could think off and never found the cause. With the breaker turned on everything worked normal. If I turned off one other breaker the voltage cleared. At that time I never found the cause and the house still has not burned down. I think it was backfeed and I explained above.

You may be into something that's the same and the LED driver in the lamp is passing it through at minimal output. An LED is on or off. For dimming the rate of switching it on and off (duration between the off and on) and you're seeing an average.

1) Does this fan/lights have any kind of remote?
2) Do any of the switches have speed control and/or dimming light capability?
3) Do the lights do this faint glow with the fan motor On or Off?
4) Were these three switches installed by you or someone else or they were there before you owned the home?
5) Do these switches control the fan motor, just the lights or both?
6) What else is on this circuit?

Out of curiosity unscrew the LEDS during this low glow mode and I'm sure the glow stops. Open the canopy and disconnect the power to the motor (black wire) and again check this faint glow. If the fan is wired hot so the pull chain operates the motor and the switches only operte the lights, this voltage check and disconnect can be done at one wall switch where the the power comes from. Measure the voltage between the neutral and the blue wire while the light switches are turn off.
Answers: 1 - No, 2 - No, 3 - I'll have to try, 4 - Switches came with the house, built in 1959. 5 - both, 6 - Not sure what all, some other lights, switches and outlets.
Thanks for your response!
 

WorthFlorida

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With this age of the home that ceiling box was only wired for a light.
Do you get the faint glow if you switch off the lights with it’s pull chain?
If you want to continue with this at the ceiling box disconnect the motor wire (blk wire to the fan) and leave the blue wire connected to the lights. Then check if the faint glow continues. If not it’s just the fan causing it. If it still glows then something in the house wiring. That’s my best guess.
 

TripleJBrandt

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With this age of the home that ceiling box was only wired for a light.
Do you get the faint glow if you switch off the lights with it’s pull chain?
If you want to continue with this at the ceiling box disconnect the motor wire (blk wire to the fan) and leave the blue wire connected to the lights. Then check if the faint glow continues. If not it’s just the fan causing it. If it still glows then something in the house wiring. That’s my best guess.
The glow stops when you use the pull chain. Thanks for the response!
 

TripleJBrandt

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In case your still curious, here's a bit of an update: I took down the ceiling fan and checked the wires at the box and got 60 volts with the wall switches off. I also shut off all the other circuits in the house and still got the 60 volts. Does that not rule out backfeed? Is it possible the problem is isolated to this circuit and just this set of switches and light. I'm thinking my next move is to check the wiring to see if any of it was done incorrectly. I did have an electrician in and he thought it was possible that the light was wired from the ceiling box down to the switches, but because he didn't think the situation was dangerous and it could possibly take hours and lots of dollars for him to sort it out, I decided to check it out more myself.
 

DonL

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In case your still curious, here's a bit of an update: I took down the ceiling fan and checked the wires at the box and got 60 volts with the wall switches off. I also shut off all the other circuits in the house and still got the 60 volts. Does that not rule out backfeed? Is it possible the problem is isolated to this circuit and just this set of switches and light. I'm thinking my next move is to check the wiring to see if any of it was done incorrectly. I did have an electrician in and he thought it was possible that the light was wired from the ceiling box down to the switches, but because he didn't think the situation was dangerous and it could possibly take hours and lots of dollars for him to sort it out, I decided to check it out more myself.

It sounds like you are reading the voltage going thru the bulb, Because the neutral is being switched instead of the hot.
 

WorthFlorida

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Using electrical clips leave the voltmeter connected at the ceiling box. With the lights off and you have 60 volts, switch off the breaker and I suspect the voltage will go to zero. Switch the breaker back on and start turning off other breakers. If the 60 voltage drops to zero at any time you narrowed it down to where to start looking.

I came across a post at an electrical web website forum and someone else also had a similar issue. I cannot find it now but the fix was a bad switch. If you have not already done so I would replace all three switches. If you have the skill, you can do it yourself for about $20. This is the typical layout for three wall switches to control a light.

3-way-and-4-way-switch-wiring-for-residential-lighting-throughout-4-way-switch-wiring-diagram-multiple-lights-pdf-1024x600.jpg
 

TripleJBrandt

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Using electrical clips leave the voltmeter connected at the ceiling box. With the lights off and you have 60 volts, switch off the breaker and I suspect the voltage will go to zero. Switch the breaker back on and start turning off other breakers. If the 60 voltage drops to zero at any time you narrowed it down to where to start looking.

I came across a post at an electrical web website forum and someone else also had a similar issue. I cannot find it now but the fix was a bad switch. If you have not already done so I would replace all three switches. If you have the skill, you can do it yourself for about $20. This is the typical layout for three wall switches to control a light.

3-way-and-4-way-switch-wiring-for-residential-lighting-throughout-4-way-switch-wiring-diagram-multiple-lights-pdf-1024x600.jpg
Thank you. I've replaced one switch I thought was suspect. The electrician suspects the wiring may have been done from the ceiling box down to the switches, so I my next move may be to trace the wires to see if it was done incorrectly. Thanks again for your help!
 

TripleJBrandt

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I did some more investigating, first shutting off every other circuit in the house one by one to see if the voltage disappeared. It did not. In case it might be two circuits backfeeding, I shut all the other circuits off, but still got the voltage at the ceiling box with the switches off.

Next, I traced the wiring and found that all the switch wires go to the ceiling box, where they are tied together to continue to their respective switches. While I realize this isn't ideal, it seems the wires eventually connect as they should in the four-way circuit. However, because they all go to the ceiling box first, the neutral for the light/fan comes into the ceiling box directly from the first three-way switch that conducts the power, rather than from the second three-way switch. Again, not conventional, but it seems it should complete the circuit and not cause voltage when the switches are off.
 

TripleJBrandt

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I did some more investigating, first shutting off every other circuit in the house one by one to see if the voltage disappeared. It did not. In case it might be two circuits backfeeding, I shut all the other circuits off, but still got the voltage at the ceiling box with the switches off.

Next, I traced the wiring and found that all the switch wires go to the ceiling box, where they are tied together to continue to their respective switches. While I realize this isn't ideal, it seems the wires eventually connect as they should in the four-way circuit. However, because they all go to the ceiling box first, the neutral for the light/fan comes into the ceiling box directly from the first three-way switch that conducts the power, rather than from the second three-way switch. Again, not conventional, but it seems it should complete the circuit and not cause voltage when the switches are off.
P.S. I've replaced one switch. Maybe it's time replace the other two and see what happens.
 

WorthFlorida

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..., because they all go to the ceiling box first, the neutral for the light/fan comes into the ceiling box directly from the first three-way switch that conducts the power, rather than from the second three-way switch. Again, not conventional, but it seems it should complete the circuit and not cause voltage when the switches are off.

It's a little confusing and it seems that the ceiling box is full of wires. What you are calling the first switch that brings power to the ceiling box, how many wires from that switch and please state colors and is there a bare copper ground wire? Is it 3 wire, BLK, WHT, RED (or Blue)? Since all of the connections are at the ceiling box you should be able to reconfigure the wiring so the power is at the first switch and the load is at the second three way switch. But is might already be that way. With a lot of wires it would be easily to get wires crossed up.

This shows wiring when power comes to the ceiling box first. It really displays how confusing it can get.

14bd25964d178b257c7e7be9b858a781f457d854.png
 
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Coolul007

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I recently replaced a ceiling fan and light kit using LED bulbs (we had used incandescent and, most recently, CFL bulbs in the old kit). The fixture is on a circuit with three wall switches controlling and seemed to be working properly with the old fixture. But the new fixture's LED bulbs glow faintly and flicker when the circuit should be open. It is so faint that it has to be dark in order to see the glow, but it's there unless we shut it off with the pull-chain on the light kit. I'm guessing we didn't notice the problem before because it's a small voltage and the LED's show it when the other bulbs wouldn't? Could this be a wall switch going bad? Thanks for any help!
Some ceiling fans use a triac to switch lights on/off using a remote. They are set up for a dimmer(doesn't work with leds) even if the remote is not present.
 

KevinG

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Did you ever find a solution to this problem? I am having the same issue with a new ceiling fan that I installed a couple of days ago. Based on advice from a retired electrician, I put a new wall switch in yesterday, but it did not resolve the problem. I only have one wall switch that operates this fan / light.
 
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