GFCI Trip on cloths Washer

[Chris75]

I would define a nuisance trip to be one caused by an internal operational flaw in the GFI/AFI. No one will die of this. The early proclivity of GFIs to create false trips is apparently being supplanted by the AFI.

Once the bugs are out they are probably good things.

Any proof of this?

 

[KD]

I do not think that the 2008 NEC will require Refrig and washing machines to be GFCI protected.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Chris75]

I do not think that the 2008 NEC will require Refrig and washing machines to be GFCI protected.

Depends on where they are located. If a washer is in a bathroom or a basement then it shall be GFI protected, If a fridge is in a basement, garage or anywhere else 210.8 dictates GFI protection.

 

[RRW]

"in a basement, garage or anywhere else" Why mention locations at all if it has to have GFI no matter where located?

 

[Chris75]

"in a basement, garage or anywhere else" Why mention locations at all if it has to have GFI no matter where located?

I said anywhere 210.8 requires... not ANYWHERE. My examples were a few found under this code section, I did not feel like typing it verbatim...

 

[JWelectric]

I do not think that the 2008 NEC will require Refrig and washing machines to be GFCI protected.

Why not?

Is there something wrong with protecting any appliance with GFCI?

 

[RRW]

Sorry, I was reading a comma into the sentence that is not there.

 

[Verdeboy]

Why not?

Is there something wrong with protecting any appliance with GFCI?

Only if you find yorself unexpectedly away for a long period of time and the GFI that is on your frig circuit tripped and you come home to a freezer full of rotting beef full of maggots and other vermin.

 

[JWelectric]

Only if you find yorself unexpectedly away for a long period of time and the GFI that is on your frig circuit tripped and you come home to a freezer full of rotting beef full of maggots and other vermin.

What caused the GFCI to trip? Could it have been something that would also trip a breaker or even worse start a fire?

I would think that should something caused a fault to ground in a circuit while I was away from home it would be best to come home to a freezer full of spoiled meat than to come home to the other choices that I might be faced with.

 

[Alternety]

If there is a "fault" to ground - that is what the breaker is for and it will stop that.

The GFI looks for small currents that bypass neutral; like when you grab a hot wire while standing in a puddle of grounded water. Not all that much current flows and a breaker will not trip. But you will want it to stop very quickly if you are the one in the puddle. On a GFI protected circuit, if you had yourself well insulated from ground and held the hot wire in one hand and the neutral in the other hand, you would satisfy any latent suicidal tendencies and the GFI wouldn't care.

The electronics in GFIs and AFIs are more sensitive to strange noise/transients on the line and may become confused - in other words, trip for no useful purpose.

 

[Chris75]

The electronics in GFIs and AFIs are more sensitive to strange noise/transients on the line and may become confused - in other words, trip for no useful purpose.

Where did you find this information? I tend to disagree BTW.

 

[Alternety]

Where did you find this information? I tend to disagree BTW.

OK. First point - if there is really an unbalanced current from something breaking; there is a real high probability it will trigger the GFI/AFI as soon as it is reset. We are not talking about that case. This is a "nuisance trip" that is OK when you reset the device. Sort of by definition a transient phenomenon.

I did not need to find an explanation of this anywhere. It is kind of like saying that you heat a joint until the solder melts on the joint. Responding to this with "where did you find this information" is sorta a non-question. Answerable; but you won't likely do it. Temperature vs alloy is different issue.

Line connected differential current sensors tied to a device that triggers/latches a relay (mechanical or solid state) state change are susceptible to transients that are completely ignored by simple mechanical circuit breakers. That is just the way electronic things work. They are probably using an SCR or TRIAC to latch. If a spike exceeds the required trigger voltage (on either the switched AC source or the control gate); it triggers and latches. This can come from the power circuit driving the electronics from the power line, from noise coupling to the neutral bus on that circuit, or simply a spike exceeding breakover/avalanche voltage on the switching device. A designer clearly tries to make the electronics impervious to this phenomenon, but it does not always work. Early units seemed to be a bunch worse than later THOROUGHLY debugged units.

It is sorta like dogs bark and water flows downhill. Many hours of engineering time is spent to make circuits ignore things like this.

 

[JWelectric]

OK. First point -.

Help me understand this "First Point" that you are trying so hard to make.

It will help me to understand this "First Point" if you would tell me how many times a
Day ____
Week ____
Month_____
or
Year ______
that you have to reset your GFCI devices.

With all this noise and spikes going on all around is it any wonder that the devices just won't hold?

Bottom line; If the GFCI device trips with no one at home the appliance that did the tripping has a problem that needs addressing before it is retruned to use.

 

[Alternety]

We seem to have a bit of communications difficulty. Current GFIs seem fairly reliable. I have seen multiple references in the applicable time frame that they did not achieve this state when they were first mandated in code. Rumor has it that AFIs have not reached this stable state at this time. Note: rumor.

If a GFI/AFI trips and then does not trip when reset under the same load/equipment configuration, it is probably a GFI transient failure. AFIs would be a trickier analysis as they are actually looking at a transient phenomenon. I would certainly not replace a refrigerator based on a single instance of these results (assuming there is only one thing on the GFI so you know what "tripped it"). Even if a device trips a GFI it does not necessarily indicate a human hazard. A little leakage to ground probably won't hurt anything unless you lift the ground and insert yourself in the path. You are of course, free to do what you choose. But I would like to be your appliance dealer.

Not trying to start an argument here. Electronics, particularly at the consumer level, tend to have a few iteration to work the bugs out. Take apart something (including probably a GFI) and look around the circuit board for a version and revision level. If it is not a newly introduced product, there tends to be changes. Even brand new products may not be at version 1 revision 0. Add firmware revisions and the odds get even worse.

I have spent significant time designing things that worked under all known and anticipated conditions and then had to fix what went wrong. A bunch of them were other peoples designs. It is sort of the way things work. People are fallible. Some times the strangest damn things happen.

To assume anything electronic (actually it is probably a wider issue than this) is infallible and act only on a single instance, without determining the actual cause, is a bad thing.

S**t happens.

 

[JWelectric]

We seem to have a bit of communications difficulty. Current GFIs seem fairly reliable. I have seen multiple references in the applicable time frame that they did not achieve this state when they were first mandated in code. Rumor has it that AFIs have not reached this stable state at this time. Note: rumor.

If a GFI/AFI trips and then does not trip when reset under the same load/equipment configuration, it is probably a GFI transient failure. AFIs would be a trickier analysis as they are actually looking at a transient phenomenon. I would certainly not replace a refrigerator based on a single instance of these results (assuming there is only one thing on the GFI so you know what "tripped it"). Even if a device trips a GFI it does not necessarily indicate a human hazard. A little leakage to ground probably won't hurt anything unless you lift the ground and insert yourself in the path. You are of course, free to do what you choose. But I would like to be your appliance dealer.

Not trying to start an argument here. Electronics, particularly at the consumer level, tend to have a few iteration to work the bugs out. Take apart something (including probably a GFI) and look around the circuit board for a version and revision level. If it is not a newly introduced product, there tends to be changes. Even brand new products may not be at version 1 revision 0. Add firmware revisions and the odds get even worse.

I have spent significant time designing things that worked under all known and anticipated conditions and then had to fix what went wrong. A bunch of them were other peoples designs. It is sort of the way things work. People are fallible. Some times the strangest damn things happen.

To assume anything electronic (actually it is probably a wider issue than this) is infallible and act only on a single instance, without determining the actual cause, is a bad thing.

S**t happens.

Does all this mean that you aren't going to help and give the answers above???

Does this mean that we should not install a freezer on GFCI protected circuits?

How are commercial kitchens getting by with this?

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Commercial and institutional kitchens — for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking

Don't these commercial appliances get the same noise and spikes as we do at home?

I understand what you are saying but I also know that what you are saying is unfounded and does not hold merit.

 

[Alternety]

jwelectric - I guess I am just missing you point. Does anything below clear anything up?

All electronic devices can fail. The failures can be intermittent. GFIs are better now than when introduced. Basis for this is hearing or reading about the problems. I am not trying to give the impression that these things trip every few minutes and are unusable. I have heard random comments concerning initial reliability. Probably a way to determine the situation if you really want to know would be for you to ask your distributers how many, if any, get returned for replacement.

The only GFI failures I can personally recollect is one bad out of the box a long time ago, and frequent trips while using extension cords in the rain. Those trips were GFIs doing what they were supposed to. Drying, binding them so they stayed together, and sealing the joints fixed the tripping and made it safer for people playing with the wires. And an AFI that tripped because inside a light fixture the manufacturer had pinched a wire and connected neutral to ground. Again, it was the correct thing for it to do. In all cases I traced down the problem and repaired it.

GFIs are primarily used to protect people, not equipment. Breakers protect equipment/wiring from gross failure. AFIs detect arc events that could cause fires. I have not looked into AFI electronics and don't know how they do their detection.

If you get a repeated GFI trip, you should find out why. The GFI or some attached device. If it is a device, find the cause and fix it. Tripped breaker needs an explanation also - maybe just too much stuff running/maybe not. AFI probably hardest to find the fault if it is not a solid failure.

If code says they are required they have to be used. Don't have to agree; just do it. I am not arguing about that either.

 

[Verdeboy]

What caused the GFCI to trip? Could it have been something that would also trip a breaker or even worse start a fire?

I would think that should something caused a fault to ground in a circuit while I was away from home it would be best to come home to a freezer full of spoiled meat than to come home to the other choices that I might be faced with.

I like the code the way it is now: GFI protection for outlets near sinks, tubs, and outdoors.

Why you would need to protect an outlet that a frig/freezer is plugged into in a kitchen makes no sense to me. Is someone gonna move that frig out of the way, plug a hair curler into that outlet, drop it into a sink full of water and then try to retrieve it? I guess it's possible. But if we continue to try to idiot-proof the whole world, we won't be able to breathe without violating some rule or code.

 

[Alternety]

Electrified ice cubes?

 

[KD]

I stand corrected. There is a certain level of hazard in using refrig or washers that trip a GFCI, but the Code allows you to live with it. You probably have non-GFCI outlets for these appliances-so you do not know if they would trip a GFCI or not. Same as the old 3 prong electric ranges, dryers...the frame carried the neutral current...but it was Code legal until about 2005 or thereabout, depending if you are in a MBH or stick house. But all the existing 3 prong dryers and ranges are still grandfathered in..how about that hazard?

 

[JWelectric]

I stand corrected. There is a certain level of hazard in using refrig or washers that trip a GFCI, but the Code allows you to live with it. You probably have non-GFCI outlets for these appliances-so you do not know if they would trip a GFCI or not. Same as the old 3 prong electric ranges, dryers...the frame carried the neutral current...but it was Code legal until about 2005 or thereabout, depending if you are in a MBH or stick house. But all the existing 3 prong dryers and ranges are still grandfathered in..how about that hazard?

250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

It ain't just as simple as being a three wire as outlined above.