Gas water heater ground

[hj]

shock

quote; This is a false statement as current will take every possible path available to it. If current always took the path of least resistance how can a human ever feel electrical shock? Wouldn’t the current choose to travel on a path of lesser resistance?

In that situation, the human being is the ONLY path, regardless of the amount of resistance. Or to put it another way, if you grab two wires and get a shock, WHAT or WHERE would be "the path of lesser resistance? If there is a "path of lesser resistance", which could indicate either usage, such as a light bulb although that would usually be a higher resistance, or a short circuit, the circuit breaker should trip, and if not, there is a serious wiring problem. In any case, installing the jumper may be "voodoo science", but it seems to cure the problem. Or at least the problem does not reoccur for some reason, regardless of what cures it.

 

[JWelectric]

Gas water heater with dielectric fittings will not conduct. It is not connected to electricity at all. When we checked these for continuity, there was none.

In the absence of line voltage and grounding, 250.104B cannot apply, therefore, common sense and a responsibility to the public applies to ensure that the other 200 feet if copper piping in the home is bonded as required under 250.104A.

Most homes have a shower so the mixing valve suffices as the bond between hot and cold of the "system", therefore we rarely have the need to require this under 250.104A.

I and others prefer to protect the public by ensuring there is a bond to all metal water piping in the home and do what is right vs trying to use & interpret the code to such a technical point that the meaning of the code for the safety and protection of the public is lost. Sometimes common sense goes a long way.

I know a few people like you that are so literal, you misinterpret the actual meaning and intent of the code.

Protect the public, ensure that the metallic water piping IS bonded as it makes up at least half of the piping in the house. There are instances where it is NOT bonded and we have proven that with DMM's, Meggers & my trusty Simpson analog.

So the rest of us that care about the public will still require this in the rare occasion that continuity between hot and cold does not exist on an all metallic water piping system and quality electricians will continue to install the jumper for the $10 cost.

Of course in your world, the $10 is not justified and neither is bonding the other 50% of the metallic water piping because you simply do not understand that there are times where there is not continuity. Probably don't know what a dielectric union is anyway.

I have told many electricians that the bonding jumper was not required because the shower mixing valve already served that purpose. You need to understand all of the pieces of the puzzle.

The understanding of all the pieces of the puzzle part of your statement is somewhat misplaced. I assure you that I have all the pieces of the puzzle down pat. It is those idiots that are trying to make something electrically continuous that has absolutely no need to be electrically continuous and thinking that this somehow makes the public safe have no clue of the puzzle let alone the pieces that form the puzzle.
In your own words please explain what danger comes from an unbounded metal water pipe that has no electrical circuit attached thereto.
NFPA Volume 79 does not allow a sprinkler system from being used as an electrode so where is the danger in this type of installation?
I suppose that those who insist that a bond across a water heater is more knowledgeable than those charged with the responsibility of writing the codes or at least they seem to think that they are.
As to the intent of the code I suppose the comments of the code panel or the ones who write the code mean nothing as to the intent but the personal feelings of some lowly inspector does. Get real and become a professional of your trade instead of a enforcer of your opinion.
Again I ask you to back your opinion concerning the bonding across a water heater with some sustained facts not opinion.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JWelectric]

quote; This is a false statement as current will take every possible path available to it. If current always took the path of least resistance how can a human ever feel electrical shock? Wouldn’t the current choose to travel on a path of lesser resistance?

In that situation, the human being is the ONLY path, regardless of the amount of resistance. Or to put it another way, if you grab two wires and get a shock, WHAT or WHERE would be "the path of lesser resistance? If there is a "path of lesser resistance", which could indicate either usage, such as a light bulb although that would usually be a higher resistance, or a short circuit, the circuit breaker should trip, and if not, there is a serious wiring problem. In any case, installing the jumper may be "voodoo science", but it seems to cure the problem. Or at least the problem does not reoccur for some reason, regardless of what cures it.

Come on here dude let’s get real. A short is a low resistance path not a high resistance.
A 100 watt light bulb would draw .83 amps and using Ohm’s Law would have an impedance of 144.5 ohms. An average human will have a resistance of 5000 ohms. Should a person touch the hot wire of a circuit at the point it supplies a 100 watt light bulb that is emitting light according to you comment the person having a higher resistance would not be shocked as the current will only follow the path of least resistance. Why don’t you prove your statement and touch the black wire while the light is burning. Come back here if you are able and lets us know if the current choose the path of least resistance or did it take every path available to it.

 

[JWelectric]

I have a building that has a 100 amp service. The only circuit wired to this service is a well that supplies water to a hose bib for the building. This building has no lights or receptacles as it is nothing more than standing stalls for the vet and Ferrier when they come by to service our horses.
The water is supplied from the well to the cutoff by nonmetallic pipe and the interior of the building has copper from the cutoff to the hose bib.
What is the proper way to bond this metallic water pipe?
What danger if any comes from this metallic water pipe?
Should I install a small water heater and another hose bib should the two bibs be bonded together and if so why?

 

[Jar546]

jwelectric

Guys like you make the worst inspectors. stick to teaching. Remember:

"Those that can do; those that can't teach"

 

[JWelectric]

jwelectric

Guys like you make the worst inspectors. stick to teaching. Remember:

"Those that can do; those that can't teach"

Boy that is a cheap shot and still does not give any substantiation to your remark that the hot and cold needs to be bonded.

Does this mean that you can not justify the requirement?

Does this mean that you do not understand the purpose of bonding a metal pipe in the first place?

Does this mean that you are one of those inspectors that enforces an opinion instead of the adopted codes in your area?

Come on now at least act like you know what you are talking about instead of slinging insults toward someone you know nothing about.

I have asked you to do something simple and explain on what merit you are making your statement. I think this is the least you can do after me posting the reason I say that it is silly to even think that something like this would be required. I have shown you the respect of backing my comments with comments from the CMP and feel that you should respect at the least your profession by doing the same and back your comments with some sort of substantiation instead of your personal opinion and as an inspector I think that this much is required.

 

[Jar546]

I have given every substantiation that exists and you are too stubborn and tunnel visioned to see the light. You just keep teaching and preaching what you want, the rest of the industry will continue to protect the public.

We will have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing this BS.

 

[JWelectric]

I have given every substantiation that exists and you are too stubborn and tunnel visioned to see the light. You just keep teaching and preaching what you want, the rest of the industry will continue to protect the public.

We will have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing this BS.

You have given nothing except your opinion. I have given code sections, statements from the code making panels as well as code sections from the codes that are 25 years gone and the only substantiation that leads to your train of thought of continuity of a metal water pipe.

I have asked you to explain why you think that the metal water pipe needs to be bonded and you have avoided giving an answer.

I have asked you to give code section you use to enforce your statement and you have avoided the answer.

Is the simple fact of the matter there is no substantiation to your opinion and there is in fact no practical reason to bond across the water heater the reason you avoid the answer?

In fact the only answer to my questions you have given is just as the post above that I quoted; a bunch of gibberish that means absolutely nothing.
Does this mean that you can’t backup your statements with anything except the lingering thoughts of years gone by?

In the code cycles in years past (before the adoption of the 1987 cycle) it was permissible to terminate the equipment grounding conductor to any metal water pipe. As the years continued and the plumbing codes started including nonmetallic pipes the electrical code changed the requirement to keep metal water pipes electrically continuous therefore the requirement was removed from the electrical code.
The requirement to bond a metal water piping system using table 250.66 has to do with lightning strikes and the fact that there is nothing in the plumbing codes to forbid a nonmetallic underground water pipe from being replace with a metal water pipe.

So you see my friend I do have both the puzzle and know just how all the pieces fit together. Yes I have spent many hours studying and researching grounding and bonding as part of my position and have never relied on the opinions of others and their thoughts on this matter.

Should you decide to move to North Carolina and start inspecting electrical installations you would have to take a course that I helped to design and pass a test that I helped write in order to get certified.
I guess this means that those who know teach and those who install and inspect have to be shown by those who know.

 

[JWelectric]

Jeff

I am going to go play in left field today with some of the wisest people in the electrical trade today.
Don Hursey instructor for NFPA, Mitch Bryant Office of the State Fire Marshall of NC, Ron Chilton Chief Electrical Inspector for the State of North Carolina Department of Insurance, several electrical inspector supervisors through out the state, co-members of the Committee for Electrical Inspectors Instructor’s Manual, and a room full of electrical inspectors getting their continuing education for this year.

Mark Ode will not be able to be with us this year as he is out of the country but he has served on many of the CMPs as well as chair the TCC. He is the lead engineer for UL at Research Triangle Park in NC.

I shall print out this thread and take it to our class today.
I have given you a chance to post something to back your statements but for some reason (there ain’t none} you have failed to do so therefore I don’t have anything from you to prove your statement.
In any debate competition this would be a loss by default.

 

[CodeOne]

In any debate competition this would be a loss by default.

Dont you mean in any Court this would be a loss by default?

He with the most paper WINS

 

[sbrn33]

Why anyone would be against properly bonding a metal piping system is beyond my comprehension.
You should resign from any code or policy making boards you might be on.

 

[Thatguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
all over the place. . .

 

[Billy_Bob]

Laws and rules are written by people. Some people are better at writing rules than others. The NEC is a bunch of rules which have been written by people and the rules are not always perfectly written.

Imagine trying to write a rule which must apply to EVERY electrical situation in the entire country including homes, businesses, government, and industry! Not so easy!

Take the next two lines for example...

Every year IN which you were employed.
Every year FOR which you were employed.

They mean different things!

When rules are not clear as to exactly what they mean, you need to look at the "intention" of the rule. Why was that rule written in the first place? What was the writer's "intention"?

And judges do this. A law may not be clear, there may be a dispute, the judge may research the law and learn what the intended purpose of the law was.

In the case of the NEC, the judge would be the local electrical inspector.

If you don't like the way a NEC rule is written, you can suggest that it be changed here...
http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

 

[CodeOne]

Guys I have a scenario i want you to ponder.

This house has plastic water supply pipe to the main shut off (typical today.). Then has copper thru out the rest of the house. So the system cannot be used for a grounding electrode. Now I have a gas water heater. The NEC says the piping is to be bonded by the circuit that could energise the pipe. What circuit is there to energise the pipe?

 

[CodeOne]

If you don't like the way a NEC rule is written, you can suggest that it be changed here...
http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

Here, Here!

Excellent Thought!

Remember the NEC is the minimum.

However as an Inspector You should not enforce your opinion!

Sometimes we do have to make interpitations.

 

[JWelectric]

Why anyone would be against properly bonding a metal piping system is beyond my comprehension.
You should resign from any code or policy making boards you might be on.

Yes I agree with this statement of why would someone require something that is not required. Why would someone try to enforce something that is not in the rules.

In the case of the NEC, the judge would be the local electrical inspector.

Boy is this ever off base. The inspector is like the police which gives you a ticket for speeding. He can not say that you were speeding 45 mph in a zone that is posted 45. The judge or in the case of the inspector the board that issued his certificate would have some very harsh words for this policeman.

As to changing the code go to this link and search my user name.

 

[Drick]

Jeff

I am going to go play in left field today with some of the wisest people in the electrical trade today.
Don Hursey instructor for NFPA, Mitch Bryant Office of the State Fire Marshall of NC, Ron Chilton Chief Electrical Inspector for the State of North Carolina Department of Insurance, several electrical inspector supervisors through out the state, co-members of the Committee for Electrical Inspectors Instructor’s Manual, and a room full of electrical inspectors getting their continuing education for this year.

Ooo, big names - I guess. I always love it when I get into a disagreement with someone and they feel the need to tell me they have 147 years of experience as a <insert trade here> and are best buddies with <insert higher authority here>.

-rick

 

[CodeOne]

Ooo, big names - I guess. I always love it when I get into a disagreement with someone and they feel the need to tell me they have 147 years of experience as a <insert trade here> and are best buddies with <insert higher authority here>.

-rick

What dog did you have in this fight?

Metaphorically speaking that is!


I thought this was between JW and JAR

 

[Frenchie]

Yes I agree with this statement of why would someone require something that is not required. Why would someone try to enforce something that is not in the rules.

Boy is this ever off base. The inspector is like the police which gives you a ticket for speeding. He can not say that you were speeding 45 mph in a zone that is posted 45. The judge or in the case of the inspector the board that issued his certificate would have some very harsh words for this policeman.

As to changing the code go to this link and search my user name.

Your name is Joseph? I thought it was Mike.

 

[CodeOne]

Your name is Joseph? I thought it was Mike.

Hey Frenchie,
Hope your ok.
Ive known Mike personally for about the last 4-5 years. His full name is Joseph Michael Whitt. Therefore JW Electric. And yes he eats, sleeps, and breathes the NEC.
Mel

PS: Good to get to know you if only a little through the forum.