Galvanized pipe holes (again)

[glgeek]

Good evening,

I apologize that my first post is a question. I have been on the Google most of the day and I landed here. I did more searching and hit a wall so I am here requesting help.

Problem:
Pressure tank leaks down and cycles submersible pump every 4.5 min.

Configuration:
95’ well in 4” casing.
Grundfos 1/2HP pump 21’ from top of casing cap. Pump installed January, 2007
Control box also installed at the same time.
Pump on the end of 21’ galvanized 1” pipe
Plastic to house
Pressure tank 20gal. Bladder in-tact and charged to 30psi
On at 30 and off at 50.

History:
The original pump installed 1977. It lasted until 2007.
2007 the original pump failed and was replaced with the current Grundfos 1/2HP pump and new 1” galvanized pipe.
2010 the exact same symptoms as now (pressure tank bleeds down to continuously cycle pump).
The pump was pulled and problem identified a hole in the galvanized pipe that was installed 3 years earlier. I saw a spout of water from the pipe as it was pulled from the casing.
The pipe was replaced with another galvanized pipe and the problem was fixed, until this week.

Today:
The well service is coming Friday

Oberservations:
The well service seems to think there is some sort of electrical problem that is causing the pipe to develop holes. I think I heard “transient voltage” at some point in the replacement process.
The well service thinks I should get an electrician to check ?????
And that is the problem; I don’t even know what I am supposed to ask the electrician to check.
And the other thing is that the first pump lasted 30 years and the pipe was not compromised, the pump just gave up.
The wiring in the house has not changed.
The wire from the cap to the pump was replaced when the pump was replaced.
Our house is properly grounded.

You would think that the pipe should last more than 6 years (and that is assuming this is the same problem).

My questions:
-Does anyone know what the well service is trying to tell me about electrical effecting the corrosion of the pipe?
-Is plastic pipe an option?
-How about stainless steel?

We have pretty corrosive water. Is this just the way it will be?

Thank you for reading this, I know it got kind of long. I was just trying to be complete.

Any help is very much appreciated.

bruce

 

[Reach4]

Plastic pipe is indeed an option. I would want schedule 80 PVC threaded pipe. You are going to have a pitless adapter below the frost line which is maybe 48 inches or more in MSP. The well installer probably use 20 ft lengths of pipe. You say the pump is 21 ft from the top of the casing. Did you maybe mean from the bottom? If so, the pipe would be screwed together with couplers. I would prefer stainless steel couplers, but there are those who find the PVC couplers plenty good. I am pretty surprised that the well installer would have put in new galvanized in 2010 unless you insisted.

I suspect the pump person will want to sell you a new pump since he is pulling the pump up. I would tend to ask that he put the existing pump back down. Is that pump a "3 inch" pump, or is it a "4 inch" pump. Your 20 gallon pressure tank is pretty small for a conventional system. Maybe you have the Grundfos SQE pump with the electronic control system to let you use that little tank.

The symptoms could be due to a leaky seal on the pitless, a hole in the pipe, or a bad checkvalve at the pump. Dang, the cold is going to make working pretty tough. Wet hands and maybe clothes. I wonder if they set up a shelter around the casing.

Do you know your pH? I suggest you consider getting a test of your water if you don't have something pretty comprehensive already. I like kit 60 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[glgeek]

Plastic pipe is indeed an option. I would want schedule 80 PVC threaded pipe. You are going to have a pitless adapter below the frost line which is maybe 48 inches or more in MSP. The well installer probably use 20 ft lengths of pipe. You say the pump is 21 ft from the top of the casing. Did you maybe mean from the bottom? If so, the pipe would be screwed together with couplers. I would prefer stainless steel couplers, but there are those who find the PVC couplers plenty good. I am pretty surprised that the well installer would have put in new galvanized in 2010 unless you insisted.

I suspect the pump person will want to sell you a new pump since he is pulling the pump up. I would tend to ask that he put the existing pump back down. Is that pump a "3 inch" pump, or is it a "4 inch" pump. Your 20 gallon pressure tank is pretty small for a conventional system. Maybe you have the Grundfos SQE pump with the electronic control system to let you use that little tank.

The symptoms could be due to a leaky seal on the pitless, a hole in the pipe, or a bad checkvalve at the pump. Dang, the cold is going to make working pretty tough. Wet hands and maybe clothes. I wonder if they set up a shelter around the casing.

Do you know your pH? I suggest you consider getting a test of your water if you don't have something pretty comprehensive already. I like kit 60 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/

Thank you for the reply.
The pump is connected to a 21' piece of galvanized pipe which is then connected to a hub that is slid into the casing. That hub is probably 4' below grade. So I would think the pump is about 24' below grade in a 95' casing.
I will check ph before Friday.
Any idea what the well service might be talking about electricity causing corrosion?
Hoping we get a little warming here before Friday.

Thank you again, I appreciate your help

Bruce

 

[Reach4]

That hub is going to be a pitless adapter. This is a popular type:

Any idea what the well service might be talking about electricity causing corrosion?

It sounds like you might have asked him why the pipe would have gone bad so soon, and he felt he had to say something.

There can be galvanic action from dissimilar metals. EDIT: I am amending my skepticism of corrosion due to AC. The statements from this book are interesting: https://books.google.com/books?id=6-pbxrfkYm4C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq="corrosion+due+to+a+combination+of++ac+and+dc" In any case, PVC will get rid of AC currents as well as galvanic action.

If your water is very acidic, you would want to treat that for your inside use.

In any case, PVC should solve the problem of the casing springing leaks.

Thursday is expected to be warmer than Friday. http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USMN0503

 

[Craigpump]

Your well is from '77, so it probably has steel casing and your installer knows that steel can corrode and make getting the pump out harder so he used steel pipe which has more tensile strength. Newer galvanized pipe isn't anywhere near as good as the older pipe.

I would probably go with a 3" Grundfos hung on sch 80 pvc. You don't need stainless couplings, sch120 couplings are more than you'll ever need.

 

[Valveman]

Like Craigpump said, you just can't get good galvanized pipe anymore. But if the hole is in the pipe threads just above the pump, electrolysis between the two dissimilar metals is probably the cause. Anytime galvanized pipe is screwed into brass or stainless the pipe should be taped with electric tape from the brass or stainless up the pipe at least 6".

One time I had a problem where the pipe repeatedly got pin holes in several locations. It was determined that the water heater was not properly grounded or had some malfunction. Once the water heater was fixed the problem went away.

 

[JPat]

4" steel well with a 4" pump...Your installer is afraid the pump will get stuck in the well after mineral build up on the inside casing. By using Galv drop pipe he can pull it out with more force, however galv drop pipe is not made with the same metals anymore and therefore deteriorates faster in your water.
Your only options are to continue to replace the galv drop pipe every few years; replace the pump with a 3" grundfos and use pvc drop pipe; or possible find stainless steel drop pipe$$$$.
Bummer to have to replace the pump again, but it is cheaper than having to drill a new well if you pump gets locked up in the well.
As for your installers explaination of the problem, I hope he meant electrolysis!

 

[glgeek]

thank you for all the replies.
i can see the hesitancy to use PVC with the 4" pump.
the last time the drop pipe was replaced, the hole was in the middle of the pipe length.
i will try to get a better idea of what the installer meant by electricity corroding the pipe.

again, thank you for all this information.

bruce

 

[Reach4]

i can see the hesitancy to use PVC with the 4" pump.
the last time the drop pipe was replaced, the hole was in the middle of the pipe length.

You may find the posts starting at https://terrylove.com/forums/index....g-a-pump-in-honduras.63497/page-3#post-473236 of interest.

Any update on what you found?

 

[glgeek]

You may find the posts starting at https://terrylove.com/forums/index....g-a-pump-in-honduras.63497/page-3#post-473236 of interest.

Any update on what you found?

just got back from buying drinking water, we will be without water for the weekend.

bad to worse

the drop pipe broke off from the spool (that is what he called it)
using what looks like a big easy out with a pounder block broke the drop pipe off at the pump
then the wire broke off from the pump
the casing is corroded in the area where the water level changes during the draw down of the pump
using a larger diameter pipe with what appears to be a ream, the casing was reamed in the corroded area
the easy out on the end of a 1" pipe was lowered through the larger pipe and threaded into the hole in the top of the pump.
some more reaming and up and down pounding
some camera inspection
8 hours later . .
the pump is 20' below grade in the casing
it is a pound down then pound up, repeat .
progress is made and then a step backward. there is still some wire from the pump that they seem to think is getting caught so up and down progress is not consistent .
they think they have a good hold on the pump
they went home and will return Monday.

we were optimistic and talked out the game plan when the pump came out.
the drop pipe is severely corroded along it length. deep pits. it could have been leaking from the threads on either end or from the craters in the middle, hard to tell.
the replacement looks to be schedule 80 PVC with Grunfos SQ 3" 10gpm (once the pump is out)

sorry this took so long to get back to you all, but they didn't leave until 5:00 and we needed to go get some water.

i won't have much to say again until Monday when the relief team shows up. but, i really do appreciate the responses that you all have given. because of them i have a pretty good understanding of what is going on and the correct decisions to move forward.

have a great weekend

thank you all

bruce

 

[Craigpump]

Pretty much what we thought......

The SQE is definitely your best option

 

[glgeek]

Well repair complete!!!

We should be good for a while.

The well service arrived yesterday morning in about -10F Minnesota weather.

The plan was to work the pump loose again by pounding it down (which they did) and then using a magnet to remove the pieces of broken spool (which did not seem to work) then pulling up the pump. Abandoning the magnet plan, they started to pull the pump up, kind of herky jerky. But, it came out !! They think that maybe the magnet on a stick moved the pieces away from the edge of the casing so they didn’t get wedged in.

So the pump is out.

A big air compressor blew water out of the well as it filled up to clean it out. I suppose it cleaned sediment from the screen also.
A little granulized bleach poured in while the pump was prepared.
The pump is a Grundfos 10SQ05-160 3”
1” PVC schedule 80 drop pipe
Check valve 1” Merrill. He said this replaces the plastic type that comes with the pump with brass. There is still only one check valve.
Baker 4” spool. This was broken in the initial attempt at extraction of the pump. Not clear how.

We adjusted the pressure on/off to 40-60. I adjusted the air to 38 with tank empty.

Ran the bleach out for about 40 minutes.

We have water!! no more melting snow to wash and flush.

I started this thread because of a leaking drop pipe. And it was significantly pitted. Not sure why. But now with plastic pipe and a smaller diameter pump, this well should be easily serviceable.

Thank you all who responded to my questions. I learned quite a bit and had a much better clue as to what was going on because of this discussion.

One last parting question:

Should I replace the pressure tank from the current 20 gallon to the next size up which is 44 gallons?

I have a WX-202 and could go to WX-250. The pump is 10 gal/min

This would double the drawdown volume and cut in half the number of times the pump starts and stops..

The WX-250 is 1¼” NPTF instead of 1” but that could be made to work I think.

Would this be a good idea?



thank you all again.

bruce

 

[Reach4]

A big air compressor blew water out of the well as it filled up to clean it out.

Wish you had pictures of that.

How long does the pump run at a minimum? Probably about 30 seconds. So WX-250 would be much better. If you have plenty of space, you could have two tanks. They add.

 

[glgeek]

Wish you had pictures of that.

How long does the pump run at a minimum? Probably about 30 seconds. So WX-250 would be much better. If you have plenty of space, you could have two tanks. They add.

here is a short clip.
this is at the beginning while the manganese was coming off the pipe.

it was running clear in about 10 minutes.

the pump runs for 30 seconds to go from 40 to 60

thank you

bruce

 

[Reach4]

Thanks. I was picturing a geyser, but seeing that black wash out was good. A geyser in that cold could have been dangerous to the people. Something less than this however:

 

[Valveman]

Without a CSV the 20 gallon tank is not large enough, the 44 gallon tank would be minimal, and an 86 gallon tank would be best. But WITH a CSV the 20 gallon tank is really more than you need. You cannot put in a tank large enough to stop the pump cycling on long term uses of water the way a CSV will do.

 

[Craigpump]

Not only is dry ice dangerous because of the pressure and cold, but if you're working in a well pit or vault, the carbon dioxide can suffocate you.